Blair vows hard line on fanatics

[rcne]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4747573.stm

Blair vows hard line on fanatics It is Mr Blair's final press conference before his summer holiday Tony Blair has outlined a raft of plans to extend powers to deport or exclude foreigners who encourage terrorism. The UK can already exclude or deport those who pose a threat to security and Mr Blair said he also wanted to clamp down on those who advocated terror. The prime minister said he was prepared to amend human rights laws to make deportations more straightforward.

I was watching the broadcast this morning, Blair made a good point on the "second article of the EU xxx' concerning the right to life, and the British government's duty to protect it.

I didn't wee the whole broadcast but from what I've watched, the Brits are seriously reconsidering the whole concept of multicultural segments that exclude themselves from the British culture.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: rcne http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4747573.stm I was watching the broadcast this morning, Blair made a good point on the "second article of the EU xxx' concerning the right to life, and the British government's duty to protect it. I didn't wee the whole broadcast but from what I've watched, the Brits are seriously reconsidering the whole concept of multicultural segments that exclude themselves from the British culture.

About time too!

[Nono]

Well this is one of the problems with immigration in Europe these days, i.e. the 'multiculturalization' of once fairly homogeneous societies. Some of the groups moving to European countries (not all of these groups Muslim, but well...) are considerably less tolerant and liberal-minded than the societies into which they're moving, which automatically spells trouble one way or another. And there's always a small, misguided segment of the indigenous population who say stuff like "Well, maybe we should allow them to perform female circumcision because it's part of their culture", etc.

No. Immigration is inevitable for various reasons (in the case of the Brits their own imperialist past) but not at any price. If immigrants come, they have to embrace the liberal values of the societies to which they move. Otherwise forget it.

Meantime, Blair does seem to have gone out of his way to kiss Bush's ass and thus alienated a huge segment of the already-present (indeed British-born) Muslim population. So now them chickens is a-comin home to roost.

[stuart.personal]

Immigration is not quite the problem - How we handle immigration is the problem.
We should be more picky about the people that move into a country - instead of rolling out the "Welcome" mat we should roll out the "You better have a good reason to want to be here - or you better have something that we would require" mat.
Not stopping there, a law similar to the 'three strikes and you are out' rule should be implemented - out meaning returned to your country of origin. That way if they are from your own country - they face stiffer punishments and if they are from a foreign country then they are sent home, to thier country of Origin.
(Yes, I hear you all say 'What about the threat of death or ill treatment of the returning citizen' - and exatly that 'What about it' - they would not get away with it in thier country of origin so why should we tolerate it here).
They would have to escape a country that may kill them or treat them badly, but in our countries they would stay and argue the case - so in which society would they be better off ?)

[jose]

Correct me if i´m wrong, but the 7/7 bombings were carried out by british citizens and thats there country of origen
anyone remember enoch powell´s ¨river of blood speach¨ i think he had to resign over it

[bishop]

i think blair's actions are justified..

after 9/11, the only thing muslim communities seemed to want to do was blame us for getting attacked. muslim leaders were extremely slow to condemn terrorism, and particularly the ideology behind it. now, i certainly believe that our foreign policies helped sow the seeds of terrorism - i have no doubt about that. but at the same time, that does not excuse inaction on the part of muslims either - and generally speaking, it looked as if the "muslim community" sought to excuse terrorism rather than come out strongly against it.

i can't completely blame muslim communities for being slow to condemn terrorism.. in fact, i think the majority of europe (and the american left) focused more on blaming our policies for the attack than looking to rectify the situation. in general, our "leaders" have consequentially paid little attention on rectifying the situation themselves. or, in bush's case, they have used the threat of terrorism to pursue foreign policies unrelated to combatting terrorism (e.g. iraq).

now the brits have gotten a reality check - despite their misgivings about their (and our) foreign policy, perhaps the understand what they're up against a little more than when we were attacked. being attacked on your home soil can put things into better perspective.


the trick as i see it is to accomplish these three things simultaneously.

1. change our foreign policies so that the hatred that fuels terrorism wanes.
2. impose a measured/calculated burden of shame unto the muslim community.
3. actively go after terrorist cells in a less overt fashion.

there are undoubtedly more things we can do, but generally speaking, we'd be a lot safer if these three points where to happen.

[Nono]

Quote by: jose Correct me if i´m wrong, but the 7/7 bombings were carried out by british citizens and thats there country of origen anyone remember enoch powell´s ¨river of blood speach¨ i think he had to resign over it

Don't know whether Powell ever resigned from anything in his life. Dude just didn't like blacks is all.

So you have British-born Muslims so alienated they're embracing the Islamo-fascist ideology. One thing you can do is weed out the non-British-born wackjobs inciting them.

Quote by: bishop impose a measured/calculated burden of shame unto the muslim community

To what end, exactly? (real question)
Someone on the Beeb today was saying that what with the desperate need for solid intelligence from within that community, it might not be such a great thing to further alienate them. So it's a tricky business.

[stuart.personal]

Quote by: jose Correct me if i´m wrong, but the 7/7 bombings were carried out by british citizens and thats there country of origen anyone remember enoch powell´s ¨river of blood speach¨ i think he had to resign over it

exactly why I pointed out the fact - "That way if they are from your own country - they face stiffer punishments and if they are from a foreign country then they are sent home, to thier country of Origin." I completely understand that they were of British Origin and that this would only have been a first strike should the plan have been uncovered earlier - but it would have alerted us {to the person / group} allowing us to monitor them closer - IF the plan had been discovered. I also feel that Blair's current plan of deporting for the reasons stated is definitely a move in the right direction http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/...cs/4747573.stm

[bishop]

Quote by: nono To what end, exactly? (real question)

personally, i think that there is justification for racial profiling on the basis that a) today's threats are largely islamic terrorists. and b) the muslim community hasn't been all that interested in condemning terrorism.

do it with a carrot and stick approach.. if we see the muslim community get more proactive, profile them less stringently.

now, i'm not sure if this could actually work, but as things currently are - society is threatened by a muslim community that seems to be less concerned about rooting out terrorists than mainstream society is. if we did nothing and kept things as open as they currently are, i doubt that would make the situation better.

[bishop]

that was a trip down incoherent lane right there..

[Nono]

Hence the name: "wonder". :)