Man shot dead by police on Tube

[ibm]

we can only judge based on what’s known and what’s available to us. if technically not knowing all the details is the reason to hold off (and permanently i suspect), then we as citizens can only take what’s given. and that’s what the government want. and that is not the way it’s supposed to be. it would be ridiculous.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Nono My question was whether you had complete and absolute knowledge of the circs. Like the rest of us, you don't. Yet unlike some of us, you formulate judgements as if you did have that knowledge. For my part, I'm reserving judgement. PatrickHenry seems to doubt the reliability of the inquiry. I see no reason to. If it turns out that this poor guy was the victim of trigger-happy cops, the Brits will have (once again) some tough questions to ask themselves about their police force. If it turns out that he was jumping turnstiles or otherwise acting in a reckless manner, it will have to be chalked up to Just One of Those Things And There but for the Grace of God... In the meantime, a little less conclusion-happy judgementalism woulndn't go amiss.

I don't think anybody said the cops were trigger-happy. Rather, we are questioning the validity of an official policy that allows the execution style shooting of suspects. The cops aren't at fault here, if they are merely following official policy.

Also, I doubt entirely that we will ever get "complete and absolute knowledge of the circs.". The results of the official inquiry are predictable. It will go down as an "unfortunate" incident, the cops will be held blameless, and we will be told that these are difficult times. No one will ever be held accountable.

[Nono]

Quote by: Zeeb I don't think anybody said the cops were trigger-happy.

Rick did:

I would think that any Londoner should feel threatened by trigger happy plain clothes police who can legally imitate 007's "license to kill" with point blank shots to the head, apparently based on fashion and ethnicity.

[ibm]

to me the most scary thing is, this could happen to any average joe’s just like you and me next time, and could be soon. and i don’t want to be a victim in a “we’re sorry it’s too bad, but this is a difficult time and we’re fighting terror” – my and everyone else’s life is worth more than that.

[IDefekt]

Quote by: bishop he should've stopped when they told him to stopped. if he did, he'd definitely still be alive and most likely they wouldn't have even discovered that he was an illegal alien. to play devil's advocate - what if this guy did have bombs on him? after all, does anyone here think that a terrorist would stop for the police? i ask this particularly of the "anti-police-state" crowd in the interest of seeing if they can offer a solution to that scenario.. (what if the guy did have bombs on him - what should they have done differently?)

that is the important question... "what if?" with no obvious presence of a bomb, could not anybody (under current prejudice) of middle eastern appearance, be viable for six shots in the head when chased by men in plain clothes claiming to be police officers? they followed the poor lad for 3 miles, including on a BUS! why not detain before this incident? "Terrorist Killed On Tube, Just in time".... makes a good headline, doesn't it?

[Chris]

Quote by: IDefekt they followed the poor lad for 3 miles, including on a BUS! why not detain before this incident? "Terrorist Killed On Tube, Just in time".... makes a good headline, doesn't it?

Now that is messed up. They should have isolated him in an alley or something. Searched him, and hopefully, they would have let him go.

[jose]

Commuter Anthony Larkin, who was also on the train at Stockwell station, told 5 Live he saw police chasing a man.

"I saw these police officers in uniform and out of uniform shouting 'get down, get down', and I saw this guy who appeared to have a bomb belt and wires coming out and people were panicking and I heard two shots being fired."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706913.stm
if check the name on google you get Anthony.Larkin@met.police.uk
click on the link and you get: Sorry, Anthony.Larkin@met.police.uk was not found. but check the google cache and theres even a nice photo of him as Lead scientist, MET police. Forensic scientist
. this story just gets stranger and stranger

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono My question was whether you had complete and absolute knowledge of the circs. Like the rest of us, you don't. Yet unlike some of us, you formulate judgements as if you did have that knowledge. For my part, I'm reserving judgement. PatrickHenry seems to doubt the reliability of the inquiry. I see no reason to. If it turns out that this poor guy was the victim of trigger-happy cops, the Brits will have (once again) some tough questions to ask themselves about their police force. If it turns out that he was jumping turnstiles or otherwise acting in a reckless manner, it will have to be chalked up to Just One of Those Things And There but for the Grace of God... In the meantime, a little less conclusion-happy judgementalism woulndn't go amiss.

No, actually Nono, that wasn't your question. And even if it was, "complete and absolute knowledge" is not available to anyone. Period. We all have no choice but to make judgements based on the facts we have available to us. Like everyone else I know what I read from the news services. In most instances, I've read the BBC regarding this case. If later facts prove me wrong, I will be more than ready to apologise. Would you do the same?

I do think that the "shoot-to-kill" policy as adopted and implemented by the police is wrong, dead wrong, as indicated by the results in this case.

And if eight shots to the head inside a subway carriage doesn't qualify as "trigger happy," I'm not sure what does. If he had indeed been a suicide bomber, he would have, in all likelihood, set off the bomb before they could shoot him, given that the twenty policemen in pursuit allowed him onto two different forms of mass transit before shooting an innocent man nine times.

[ise]

Menezes death 'a state execution'
19 Sept 2005

The shooting dead of Jean Charles de Menezes during a hunt for terrorists amounted to "a state execution", a leading Liberal Democrat has said. Matthew Taylor, the party's former chairman, said the "fundamentals of civil liberties" were under threat from government-led anti-terror efforts. Mr Menezes was shot dead at Stockwell tube station the day after the failed 21 July bombings in London. Mr Taylor said the government should not "surrender" the rule of law.

reading back through the posts, there are many who would express different opinions now, imo. surely it was always suspicious that if they suspected him as a bomber, that allowing him onto a train was the utmost folly. was it not clearly not a murphy's law case. just about everything was done wrong.

putting myself inside the head of a suicide bomber, i have thought how this event might change things. previously, i was only interested in getting to a train to fulfill my mission. as a female, i'm not sure what's in it for me as all those virgins are not top of my list. however, i might have being looking for the opportunity to change my mind. now every bobby or short-haired whitie may wish to execute me. so i'm going to make sure that i press my button before he presses his trigger.

there is no way that i see any advantage in the new 'shoot to kill' policy that lessens the number of bombings. the bomber intends dying. the number he/she dies with is the issue. nothing in the 'shoot to kill' policy changes that. imo it only insures a 'hit' every time.

so the outcome:
one; will anyone trust the police version of any subsequent event. they told a tissue of lies and have been found out.
two; if you had the choice, would you put a foot inside london while the 'shoot to kill' policy continues. those 5, 8, 11 bullets will cost an unbelievable amount. the notion of the friendly english bobby is dead and gone.

the lessns of the past have not been learnt in england, no more than the same in ireland. our police and guns do not mix. i can only remember the number of 'bad' hits. my logic might be that any office who volunteers for gun service is the last one that i would trust with a gun. join the army if you wish to carry.

[Nono]

Any police killing that fits the 'rules of engagement' could be described as a "state execution".

I suggest we adjourn the discussion and give them a bit more time to come up with a credible account of what did, and what didn't, actually happen.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono Any police killing that fits the 'rules of engagement' could be described as a "state execution". I suggest we adjourn the discussion and give them a bit more time to come up with a credible account of what did, and what didn't, actually happen.

You said essentially the same thing at the end of July. That was before it was determined that virtually every claim made by the police - baggy coat, turnstill jumping, running from police, etc. - turned out to be wrong.

How long do you propose we wait before even discussing the topic? How long will it take before it is all swept under the proverbial rug anyway?

[ise]

the plot thickens

Former police commissioner says
Blair knew about 'shoot to kill' policy
Cape Times
September 21, 2005

Tony Blair and David Blunkett were both told of a secret shift to a "shoot to kill" policy for suspected suicide bombers three years ago, the former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Stevens said yesterday.

Anger that parliament was never told about the new policy was fuelled yesterday by the disclosure that both the prime minister and the former home secretary were informed. It was made in January 2002 as the terror threat increased after the September 11 attacks in the United States. Blair has previously said he could not remember whether the issue had crossed his desk.

where was it that the british police received their 'shoot to kill' training?

[ise]

Quote by: RickSp You said essentially the same thing at the end of July. That was before it was determined that virtually every claim made by the police - baggy coat, turnstile jumping, running from police, etc. - turned out to be wrong. How long do you propose we wait before even discussing the topic? How long will it take before it is all swept under the proverbial rug anyway?

"virtually every claim made by the police...turned out to be wrong." does this not sound just like another country.

blair's britain is to be avoided. in the end those 5, 8 or 11 rounds will cost britain more than the ira 'spectacular'. friendly british bobby - gone and dusted.

the british have always been good at deceit. the chances of them having a similar cock up are remote. would it be smart to say that they had changed their policy back to not murdering suspects? just to fool the public and visitors. of course, this would be admitting that they were wrong in having a murder policy in the first place. could not have that, could we?

watching the bbc recently on the cock up blair made of trying to prevent red ken becoming lord mayor of london, you would agree that blair is one bad judge of men on occasion. i'd bet that red ken would poll 80% in a contest against blair in london today. blair came out on the wrong end of his dispute with georgeous george galloway also.

Shot man's mother calls for justice
Tue 27 Sep 2005

The family of Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes called for "justice" as they arrived in Britain. His parents, Matozinhos Otone Da Silva and Maria Otone de Menezes, flew into Heathrow from Rio accompanied by Jean Charles's brother, Giovani Da Silva, and Giovani's wife, Iranildes, and three young children. The family left their British Airways flight and were escorted through arrivals at Terminal 4 by half a dozen Metropolitan Police officers.

i hope they were not armed.

Mrs Otone de Menezes told waiting reporters: "We are searching for justice." Through an interpreter, she added: "I want the police to be punished."

wrong target mrs de menezes. correct target are the policy makers or the people that trained british bobbies to be murders with friends in high places.

[ise]

Quote by: Quote by: RickSp You said essentially the same thing at the end of July. That was before it was determined that virtually every claim made by the police - baggy coat, turnstile jumping, running from police, etc. - turned out to be wrong.

How long do you propose we wait before even discussing the topic? How long will it take before it is all swept under the proverbial rug anyway? "virtually every claim made by the police...turned out to be wrong." does this not sound just like another country.

and now more lies exposed.


Police knew of shooting mistake 'within hours'
By Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent
September 28, 2005

SENIOR Scotland Yard commanders voiced fears that police may have blundered within hours of the death of Jean Charles de Menezes. But, according to police sources, the warnings were not heeded in the confusion and panic, and Scotland Yard publicly maintained for nearly 24 hours that he was linked to terror groups. Fresh details of the blunders surrounding the death of Mr de Menezes emerged yesterday as the family of the Brazilian electrician arrived in Britain to visit Stockwell Underground station, where he died, and to see the team that is investigating the death.

[Nono]

Quote by: Rick How long do you propose we wait before even discussing the topic?

Until the investigation has reported and knowledgeable people have had a chance to challenge its conduct and findings -- even people who aren't blessed with your personal clairvoyance.

How long will it take before it is all swept under the proverbial rug anyway?

Dunno. It's up to civil society to make sure that doesn't happen.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono Until the investigation has reported and knowledgeable people have had a chance to challenge its conduct and findings -- even people who aren't blessed with your personal clairvoyance..

Well my "personal clairvoyance", as you so snippily refer to it, is what I read in the BBC and the Times. But you prefer to put your trust in the folks who approved the "shoot to kill" policy and then helped in the cover-up. Somehow I prefer a critical reading of the press to a blind faith in the government that shot an innocent man eight times in the head, but that's just me.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Nono Dunno. It's up to civil society to make sure that doesn't happen.

Isn't that pretty much us? Isn't that why we debate these kinds of issues here? This was a police execution, and sweeping the facts under the rug won't get anything changed. The people involved in the deliberate attempt to cover them up should be held accountable.

[Nono]

Quote by: Rick You prefer to put your trust in the folks who approved the "shoot to kill" policy and then helped in the cover-up.

Supply even one iota of proof for this statement.

Quote by: Zee This was a police execution, and sweeping the facts under the rug won't get anything changed.

Maybe it was; maybe it wasn't. You're pretty damn sure of yourself, for someone who wasn't present (but knows what he prefers to believe alright).

You two can knock off the strawman stuff already. I know it's stoopid of me, but I prefer to suspend judgement until the facts are in, and they will be one day -- as they always are eventually.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Nono Supply even one iota of proof for this statement.

Let's see, who is conducting the investigation? Wholly independent and above reproach?

Quote by: Nono I prefer to suspend judgement until the facts are in, and they will be one day -- as they always are eventually.

Are you suggesting that the BBC and the Times are not providing the best information available? I'm not sure in this case, as it effects the safety of all tube riders, that patience is necessarily a virtue.

[Nono]

Quote by: Rick I'm not sure in this case, as it effects the safety of all tube riders, that patience is necessarily a virtue.

Unimpeachable vigilante reasoning (Yep, gonna string them jaywalkers up maself. Sherriff doan know howda keep the streets safe nohow.) I suppose you also laid in several tons of supplies to tide you over the Millennium Bug Catastrophe.

Still waiting for that iota, Rick. :)