Man shot dead by police on Tube

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Sonart Then I don't think you've been looking. I think 9/11 genuinely terrified most Americans. Just look at the irrational post-9/11 collapse in airline travel. The fact that folks like me and you may have been booking seats to anywhere simply out of jaw-jutting defiance couldn't reverse that.

I think most of the people getting press, have been New Yorkers who were at the scene, business travelers who frequently fly, and a few people along the Mexican border. I'm sure they are a little more nervous than the rest of us.


Where I live, I cannot say I have yet to meet one person who was worried about being attacked by a terrorist. And, yes, we do have sensitive targets around here. I am twenty miles from Canadian water. (the border along lake Erie)


There can be no denying that the media is on the same side of this as government, which should be painfully obvious by the whats being said, over, and over, and over again.


When they go to all the trouble to repeat the same thing over, and over ad naseum, I always suspect that it is the "truth" that they want the bulk of the viewing audience to remember, and not the real truth.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Fact: Menezes was running away from his approaching death. His fear was well founded.

Quote by: Sonart The second I doubt very much.

I meant existentially. The events are very clear. Menezes fled from the officers who executed him only moments later. What is hard to understand about this?

My conspirator senses are tingling over this event. Police are trained NOT to do this to suspects. I wonder if there was an unexplained reason he was executed...

[Nono]

Quote by: Pat Police are trained NOT to do this to suspects.

I'm afraid they are trained to do this at the moment. And he wasn't a suspect in the sense of someone suspected of having committed a crime, but rather of one who looked to them like he might be about to set off a bomb.

The version I heard was that he had the misfortune to be living in a house being kept under surveillance by the cops, for the obvious reason that they suspected it of harbouring kamikazes. This swarthy individual (and let's face it, swarthiness doesn't help in such circs) left it wearing a jacket (so possibly with you-know-what underneath) and headed straight for the underground. Armed cops followed. They shouted for him to freeze. Instead he started running (which could only have heightened their suspicion). They aimed not at his torso (a target which, depending on the make-up of the explosives, could set them off) but at his head so as to incapacitate him and render him incapable of setting the thing off.

Unfortunately, he was just some innocent Brazilian. As one of the London papers pointed out, if he'd been a suicide bomber, these cops would now be heroes. Since he wasn't, they're being treated as murderers.

An investigation will presumably throw light on the circumstances. If they are as stated above, what can you say? These days you're well advised to comply with orders from the police in the London underground.

My conspirator senses are tingling over this event. ... I wonder if there was an unexplained reason he was executed...

What explanation does that tingling prompt? Don't the London cops have enough trouble these days? Why would they heap more on themselves by executing harmless Brazilians?
And suggestions?

[Samildanach]

The only real question is whether they identified themselves as police when they started chasing. If they didn't do that then they are guilty of murder. Otherwise they might as well be people with guns chasing the guy.
In which case I would have run as well.

[Sisyphus]

It was a Brazilian electrician wearing a trenchcoat in the middle of the summer who hopped a turnstile and was running. And you wonder why he was shot.

[ibm]

Quote by: Sisyphus It was a Brazilian electrician wearing a trenchcoat in the middle of the summer who hopped a turnstile and was running. ...

was that a crime?

and what justifies 6 shots in the head after he's pinned down?

shoot first, ask questions later? too bad, you can't question a man after he's dead, can you?

[Nono]

Quote by: Sam The only real question is whether they identified themselves as police when they started chasing.

Not sure how real it is since they most definitely are trained to do that. It would be pretty mystifying if they hadn't.

In which case I would have run as well.

You'd run from a phalanx of people pointing guns at you in the London underground in July 2005? Then you're a bigger fool than I'd have thought.

[Chris]

Quote by: ibm was that a crime? and what justifies 6 shots in the head after he's pinned down? shoot first, ask questions later? too bad, you can't question a man after he's dead, can you?

Yeah but hypothetically the cops along with everyone else in that carriage could have been dead if he really had explosives.

So if that was the case we would have never known why. (unless of course you have cctv cameras in the carriage/platform/station.

I am not in any way downgrading this tragedy, but you have to look at the bigger picture, instead of bitching about the cops using too much force.

[ibm]

Quote by: |Chris| Yeah but hypothetically the cops along with everyone else in that carriage could have been dead if he really had explosives. So if that was the case we would have never known why. (unless of course you have cctv cameras in the carriage/platform/station. I am not in any way downgrading this tragedy, but you have to look at the bigger picture, instead of bitching about the cops using too much force.

chris, rick brought this up and i had thought of the same thing. like what i've said, if the man did have bombs, they're gonna explode and people would die. it would’ve been the mistakes by the police still – they should’ve questioned or tried to pin him down BEFORE he got into the tunnel.

it's not a blame game. the mentality is really where the problem is.

[RickSp]

So much needs to be explained.

If the police were indeed following him, why was he allowed to get on mass transportation not once but twice? If the "shoot to kill" policy makes sense, it would be good to clarify what it means. "They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead," witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. "He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified." Right now it appears that anyone with swarthy skin and a baggy coat or a bag pack could be considered an appropriate target for multiple bullets to the head.

[Chris]

Quote by: ibm they should’ve questioned or tried to pin him down BEFORE he got into the tunnel.

I agree. But if the police side of the story is true the guy ran off when they stopped him. hence, the chase/

but your point, I agree.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Patrick Henry I meant existentially. The events are very clear. Menezes fled from the officers who executed him only moments later. What is hard to understand about this?

I thought you meant he was running for his life. Didn't know you were gonna get all existential on me

Quote by: Patrick Henry My conspirator senses are tingling over this event. Police are trained NOT to do this to suspects. I wonder if there was an unexplained reason he was executed...

Again, I tend to think the simplest solutions are the best. I think they did it out of mortal fear, for their own lives and those around them. According to some talking head the other night, the police are also trained to shoot would be suicide bombers in the head, to stop any reflexive triggering of a device. It was a tragic mistake, made by terrified policemen in a terrifying atmosphere. I compare it to the New York cops a few years back, who, in the middle of a hectic situation around them, shot Amadhu Dialo (sp) 40 times for pulling out a cell phone.

And again, I'm not trying to justify it, I'm simply placing myself in their situation. You're right, the police are supposed to be trained, they should never have allowed it to get that far and it should not have happened. But it's just a sh!tty situation all around, and I have no doubt that those Bobbies will be living with horrible guilt and remorse for the rest of their lives.

Quote by: RickSp Right now it appears that anyone with swarthy skin and a baggy coat or a bag pack could be considered an appropriate target for multiple bullets to the head.

An unfortunate situation, made worse by the fact that so far, everyone involved in blowing up crowds of innocent Londoners has had swarthy skin, baggy coats or back packs. If given their task of stopping future bombings, who would you be looking for, Rick? Not to shoot in the head... that's over the top... but to suspect.

.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Sonart An unfortunate situation, made worse by the fact that so far, everyone involved in blowing up crowds of innocent Londoners has had swarthy skin, baggy coats or back packs. If given their task of stopping future bombings, who would you be looking for, Rick? Not to shoot in the head... that's over the top... but to suspect.

That is exactly the point, isn't it? Suspicion is one thing. Shooting someone in the head quite another.

The real problem is that almost one in every three Londoners is a "minority". If one is to seek to find and arrest terrorists among the Islamic community, it would be a good idea to treat the community with at least a modicum of respect. Shooting individuals because of their apparent ethnicity, in addition to being barbaric, is on purely practical terms, highly counterproductive.

[Sonart]

Quote by: RickSp That is exactly the point, isn't it? Suspicion is one thing. Shooting someone in the head quite another.

I absolutely agree with you, Rick. But I'm sorry, I can't help but feel a twinge of sympathy for those policemen. I have three brothers; one's a cop and another was a cop. They're good men who despise injustice, but they're still just men and I have no idea how they'd react if placed in that situation. Like I said, it's just a sh!tty situation all around.

Quote by: RickSp Shooting individuals because of their apparent ethnicity, in addition to being barbaric, is on purely practical terms, highly counterproductive.

Agreed. But they didn't shoot him because of his ethnicity, they shot him because of his ethnicity AND his actions. And yes, it was counterproductive... most screwups are. But in looking for suspects for horrendous crimes that continue to happen, if, as Muslims themselves concede, not all mideastern Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are mideastern Muslims, why would you look anywhere else?

I think it was the Rev. Jesse Jackson who conceded how it dawned on him one day... that if he was walking down the street and a group of black youths in gangsta dress were approaching from one direction and a group of white kids from another, he would be afraid of the blacks.
.

[Zeebadee]

This was a summary execution, pure and simple. Even if the guy had explosives on him, until now the official policy hasn't been the death penalty for mere suspicion. He was knocked down, and shot in the head at close range. If it's now official policy that plain-clothed officers on the streets have the right to execute suspects, the terrorists have scored a major victory.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Sonart I absolutely agree with you, Rick. But I'm sorry, I can't help but feel a twinge of sympathy for those policemen. I have three brothers; one's a cop and another was a cop. They're good men who despise injustice, but they're still just men and I have no idea how they'd react if placed in that situation. Like I said, it's just a sh!tty situation all around.

I feel badly for the cops who screwed up. The biggest problem is the "shoot to kill" policy set by higher-ups being macho. Of course, the cops will get on with their lives, one way or another, something than can not be said for Jean Charles de Menezes.

[ibm]

Quote by: Zeebadee This was a summary execution, pure and simple. Even if the guy had explosives on him, until now the official policy hasn't been the death penalty for mere suspicion. He was knocked down, and shot in the head at close range. If it's now official policy that plain-clothed officers on the streets have the right to execute suspects, the terrorists have scored a major victory.

exactly the way i feel.

bin laden must be laughing somewhere.

[Nono]

Quote by: Zeeb This was a summary execution, pure and simple. Even if the guy had explosives on him, until now the official policy hasn't been the death penalty for mere suspicion. He was knocked down, and shot in the head at close range. If it's now official policy that plain-clothed officers on the streets have the right to execute suspects, the terrorists have scored a major victory.

A very silly analysis from several points of view.

First, obviously if you have a guy you think is a suicide bomber the one urgent task is to prevent him from detonating the bomb. Hence the headshot. (Or do you imagine that they knew he was a Brazilian non-bomber and were just out for some homicidal fun?)

Second, if you're trying to stop a wave of bombings, do you want to catch your bombers dead (i.e. dead) or alive (i.e. in a state to "help the police with their enquiries")?

So, Zeeb, tell us the purpose of this alleged execution policy that's so "pure and simple" to you. You think they're trying to scare the bombers or something? :)

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Nono A very silly analysis from several points of view. First, obviously if you have a guy you think is a suicide bomber the one urgent task is to prevent him from detonating the bomb. Hence the headshot. (Or do you imagine that they knew he was a Brazilian non-bomber and were just out for some homicidal fun?) Second, if you're trying to stop a wave of bombings, do you want to catch your bombers dead (i.e. dead) or alive (i.e. in a state to "help the police with their enquiries")? So, Zeeb, tell us the purpose of this alleged execution policy that's so "pure and simple" to you. You think they're trying to scare the bombers or something? :)

Yes scare the bombers......guys who are willingly about to go and blow themselves up. Normal police trainig would dictate shooting centre mass due to the greater chance of hitting the target. But from what I understand, when it comes to guys with bomb belts or some such, head shots are the recommended...from the front- throught the targets mouth or if from behind just at the base of the skull, both designed to sever the Medulla Oblongata and prevent reflexive reaction from a standard brain injury.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Nono A very silly analysis from several points of view. First, obviously if you have a guy you think is a suicide bomber the one urgent task is to prevent him from detonating the bomb. Hence the headshot. (Or do you imagine that they knew he was a Brazilian non-bomber and were just out for some homicidal fun?)

"you have a guy you think is a suicide bomber", so, "the headshot". If you don't see a problem with shooting someone you "think" is a bomber, then no analysis is necessary. I guess a little collateral damage is acceptable in your view.

Quote by: Nono Second, if you're trying to stop a wave of bombings, do you want to catch your bombers dead (i.e. dead) or alive (i.e. in a state to "help the police with their enquiries")?

Well, I would assume that you'd want to take the guy alive so he could be "rendered" to a place where they didn't entertain the "quaint" notions of acceptable questioning techniques. So why didn't they take this guy alive? From the reports I saw, he was knocked down, a gun was stuck up against his head and he was blown away, no questions asked.

Quote by: Nono So, Zeeb, tell us the purpose of this alleged execution policy that's so "pure and simple" to you. You think they're trying to scare the bombers or something? :)

I think the purpose is clear, they want to prevent a suicide bomber from detonating his device. The problem is that until he's positively determined to be a bomber, he's only a suspect. I'm not sure how to handle this kind of issue, but I don't think shooting people that turn out to be innocent is going to help much.