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**Matt W** · Jul 11, 2005, 09:50 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4671687.stm

Quote:

An independent investigator for the UN says racism in Japan is deep and profound, and the government does not recognise the depth of the problem.

Doudou Diene, a UN special rapporteur on racism and xenophobia, was speaking at the end of a nine-day tour of the country.

He said Japan should introduce new legislation to combat discrimination.

Mr Diene travelled to several Japanese cities during his visit, meeting minority groups and touring slums.

Something often suspected, but rarely commented on in quite so blunt terms. Now we wait for Japans' response....

Nono · Jul 11, 2005, 10:33 am

Response? Wouldn't that be very un-Japanese?

Doudou Diene, eh? Must be African with a name like that. No doubt he got a personal taste.

But before the Chinese members weigh in against the Japanese here, let it be said that if the latter take the Racism Crown, the former are runners-up.

ibm · Jul 11, 2005, 12:07 pm

are we talking about race or are we talking about class? thought japan is pretty much a mono-race state.

tinybear · Jul 11, 2005, 12:32 pm

Let's face it, who isn't racist to some extent? And, yeah, the Chinese are one of the most racist people on earth and so are the Japanese. Welcome to the far east folks!

Nono · Jul 11, 2005, 01:08 pm

ibm, we're talking race you lil ol foreign devil you.

tinybear · Jul 11, 2005, 01:14 pm

In China, we call you guys 'gweilos' (literal translation: foreign devil). :)

oranged · Jul 11, 2005, 02:56 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Nono

Response? Wouldn't that be very un-Japanese?

Doudou Diene, eh? Must be African with a name like that. No doubt he got a personal taste.

But before the Chinese members weigh in against the Japanese here, let it be said that if the latter take the Racism Crown, the former are runners-up.

Is there a KKK in either country, how about a fascist anti-arab government. America is not even the most racist country, though. I think Samalia is, I think they still don't have a government, they just have war-lords who kill white people one sight. If your sick of racism come to Sweden, it's one at least a few awards for the worlds least racist country.

The Dunedan · Jul 11, 2005, 03:01 pm

Wo bu shi bu-bu-hao da-bizi waguoren...

( I'm not THAT much of a big-nosed barbarian! )

Anyway, I think it's obvious to anybody with any experiance that most places and cultures are, to greater or lesser degrees, racist. A lot of it has to do with how racially-integrated the mainstream culture is. In the US, we still have racism; but mainstream US culture is very multiracial, so our home-grown racism tends to be much more subtle, understated, and less frequently articulated. China has 97 ( official ) Ethnicities, but the population is 90%-plus Han, and other ethnic groups are generally seen as being far, far removed from the Han mainstream. Non-Chinese are seen as being pregressively less civilized, with Gwailuo ( Westerners ) and Nyegwei ( Black Animals ) being about as far down the "civilizational food-chain" as one can get.

Japan is even more mono-ethnic, with the very small population of Ainu on the northern islands being their only home-grown minority population. As a result, their attitudes are tend to be even more pronounced than the Chinese; Koreans get it the worst by FAR. The one curious gap in such things seems to be the Japanese attitude towards Americans...possibly as a result of having two cities vaporized, the Japanese seem to have a much different attitude towards Americans than towards other Gaijin, although the older generation still doesn't think much of us. Other groups, however, are subject to all matter of abuse, ESPECIALLY foreign women. Beatings and rapes are quite common, and the Yakuza crime-gangs have an extremely strong and overt racist element.

This report really is a case of "Thank you, Captain Obvious!"

allen · Jul 11, 2005, 05:01 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Dunedan

Wo bu shi bu-bu-hao da-bizi waguoren...

( I'm not THAT much of a big-nosed barbarian! )

I am sure you don't know exactly what that chinese means. Waguoren shall be waiguoren if we stick to Pinyin, and it means "foreigner", or "people from other nations". It is a neutral word. I don't know how can you translate that into "barbarian".

The Dunedan · Jul 11, 2005, 05:05 pm

It's all about context. In some contexts, "Waiguoren" can simply mean a foreigner, but in a hostile context it's a "polite" way of calling someone barbaric...sortof like how, in the Southern US, saying something is "nice" or "cute" in certain tones of voice can indicate that it's actually hideous, but you're being too polite to say so outright.

allen · Jul 11, 2005, 05:32 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Dunedan

Non-Chinese are seen as being pregressively less civilized, with Gwailuo ( Westerners ) and Nyegwei ( Black Animals ) being about as far down the "civilizational food-chain" as one can get.

Well, I have never heard of the use of Gwailuo in Beijing. We call westerners Laowai, which is a better than neutral name. As for Nyegwei, I can not even guess what Chinese word(s) it is from, not to mention ever hearing of it.

But it is very interesting to know you have such an impression. Can you tell me where you get it? With the current massive and rapid westernization in Chinese cities, I wish what you said have some truth in it, not because I am a racist, but because I hope our people feel confident about our culture and avoid being lost.

The Dunedan · Jul 11, 2005, 07:12 pm

Most of my exposure is through Cantonese and Szechuanese immigrants ( 1st and 2nd Gen ) to the Southern US, mainly in Louisiana and Texas, where my family is from. This could explain some of the disconnect. We also have a fairly large Cantonese population in my current hometown in western North Carolina. I havn't a clue what the Hanyu-pinyin spelling of "Nyegwei" is, so I spelled it phoenetically. I get the feeling it's probably a dialectic term, since the pronunciation is decidedly more tonal than in Mandarin.

I have two years of study in Mandarin, but most of my previous experiance/exposure to the Chinese language was with Cantonese, so I think this may be where the problem is. My formal Mandarin is so-so, but the only colloquial Chinese that I know is Cantonese.

tinybear · Jul 11, 2005, 07:35 pm

I'm Cantonese and I've not heard of the term "Nyegwei".

The Dunedan · Jul 11, 2005, 08:21 pm

Odd...maybe it's some sort of short-lived slang term, I dunno. You still hear it in the US sometimes, though now I'm at a los as to where it came from.

Punkbuster · Jul 11, 2005, 11:47 pm

My Wife is Japanese and her mom is "old world" "Samuri" type Japanese amd let me tell you- they did not side with Hitler for no reason- they feel they are superior at least to other Aisians- and they HATE Koreans- I have first hand knowledge. And dont think that Samsung and Hyundai dont relish kicking some Japanese butt in the marketplace. But the newer generation of Japanese are more "customer" oriented and not near as bad as their parents and their parents parents. This has been my experience. Japanese in general are pretty fond of Americans however. My wife just got back from a trip there 2 months ago and was treated very well. Go figure a nation that does not disdain us dumbed down ever weight Americans.

Nono · Jul 12, 2005, 06:13 am

Well, Punkbuster, I wouldn't go by appearances. I'm sure the Japanese feel plenty superior to Americans.

Quote:

Quote by: allen

... the current massive and rapid westernization in Chinese cities ...

Again, this is a superficial phenomenon in cultural terms. It isn't going to change the basic Chinese outlook, formed over thousands of years.

Nono · Jul 12, 2005, 06:18 am

Quote:

Quote by: oranged

If your sick of racism come to Sweden, it's one at least a few awards for the worlds least racist country.

Fond as I am of the tolerant, social-democratic society in Sweden that seems to have died with Olaf Palme, there's that other strain of Germanic Swedishness exemplified by Palme's murderers. I personally know Swedes who sound like Archie Bunker. Ask any Kurdish, Chilean, etc. refugee.

allen · Jul 12, 2005, 09:05 am

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

I'm Cantonese and I've not heard of the term "Nyegwei".

After one day of guessing, I think it should be "Hei-gwei" or "Hei-gui", which means black guy. This is not a good word, but not used in China. We use the word "heiren" (black people, a neutral word).

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 12, 2005, 09:19 am

There is nothing unlawful about discriminating.

If the best man for the job is a different race, and you don't hire him because of his race, then your business will go bankrupt. It's as simple as that.

Stop trying to regulate a self regulating practice!

**Matt W** · Jul 12, 2005, 09:28 am

Fair enough, tman, as far as business processes go. But what about societal issues? How do you propose fighting racism?

Jul 11, 2005, 10:33 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,443	Response? Wouldn't that be very un-Japanese? Doudou Diene, eh? Must be African with a name like that. No doubt he got a personal taste. But before the Chinese members weigh in against the Japanese here, let it be said that if the latter take the Racism Crown, the former are runners-up. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 11, 2005, 01:08 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,443	ibm, we're talking race you lil ol foreign devil you. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 11, 2005, 11:47 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Punkbuster Molten Ash Posts: 56	My Wife is Japanese and her mom is "old world" "Samuri" type Japanese amd let me tell you- they did not side with Hitler for no reason- they feel they are superior at least to other Aisians- and they HATE Koreans- I have first hand knowledge. And dont think that Samsung and Hyundai dont relish kicking some Japanese butt in the marketplace. But the newer generation of Japanese are more "customer" oriented and not near as bad as their parents and their parents parents. This has been my experience. Japanese in general are pretty fond of Americans however. My wife just got back from a trip there 2 months ago and was treated very well. Go figure a nation that does not disdain us dumbed down ever weight Americans. "What the hell kind of country has this become if I can only hate a man if he's white?" Hank Hill - King of the Hill

Jul 12, 2005, 09:28 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 5,709	Fair enough, tman, as far as business processes go. But what about societal issues? How do you propose fighting racism? I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 11, 2005, 12:07 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
ibm Igneous Magma Posts: 672	are we talking about race or are we talking about class? thought japan is pretty much a mono-race state.

Jul 11, 2005, 12:32 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 6,992	Let's face it, who isn't racist to some extent? And, yeah, the Chinese are one of the most racist people on earth and so are the Japanese. Welcome to the far east folks!

Jul 11, 2005, 01:14 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 6,992	In China, we call you guys 'gweilos' (literal translation: foreign devil). :)

Jul 11, 2005, 03:01 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 856	Wo bu shi bu-bu-hao da-bizi waguoren... ( I'm not THAT much of a big-nosed barbarian! ) Anyway, I think it's obvious to anybody with any experiance that most places and cultures are, to greater or lesser degrees, racist. A lot of it has to do with how racially-integrated the mainstream culture is. In the US, we still have racism; but mainstream US culture is very multiracial, so our home-grown racism tends to be much more subtle, understated, and less frequently articulated. China has 97 ( official ) Ethnicities, but the population is 90%-plus Han, and other ethnic groups are generally seen as being far, far removed from the Han mainstream. Non-Chinese are seen as being pregressively less civilized, with Gwailuo ( Westerners ) and Nyegwei ( Black Animals ) being about as far down the "civilizational food-chain" as one can get. Japan is even more mono-ethnic, with the very small population of Ainu on the northern islands being their only home-grown minority population. As a result, their attitudes are tend to be even more pronounced than the Chinese; Koreans get it the worst by FAR. The one curious gap in such things seems to be the Japanese attitude towards Americans...possibly as a result of having two cities vaporized, the Japanese seem to have a much different attitude towards Americans than towards other Gaijin, although the older generation still doesn't think much of us. Other groups, however, are subject to all matter of abuse, ESPECIALLY foreign women. Beatings and rapes are quite common, and the Yakuza crime-gangs have an extremely strong and overt racist element. This report really is a case of "Thank you, Captain Obvious!"

Jul 11, 2005, 05:05 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 856	It's all about context. In some contexts, "Waiguoren" can simply mean a foreigner, but in a hostile context it's a "polite" way of calling someone barbaric...sortof like how, in the Southern US, saying something is "nice" or "cute" in certain tones of voice can indicate that it's actually hideous, but you're being too polite to say so outright.

Jul 11, 2005, 07:12 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 856	Most of my exposure is through Cantonese and Szechuanese immigrants ( 1st and 2nd Gen ) to the Southern US, mainly in Louisiana and Texas, where my family is from. This could explain some of the disconnect. We also have a fairly large Cantonese population in my current hometown in western North Carolina. I havn't a clue what the Hanyu-pinyin spelling of "Nyegwei" is, so I spelled it phoenetically. I get the feeling it's probably a dialectic term, since the pronunciation is decidedly more tonal than in Mandarin. I have two years of study in Mandarin, but most of my previous experiance/exposure to the Chinese language was with Cantonese, so I think this may be where the problem is. My formal Mandarin is so-so, but the only colloquial Chinese that I know is Cantonese.

Jul 11, 2005, 07:35 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 6,992	I'm Cantonese and I've not heard of the term "Nyegwei".

Jul 11, 2005, 08:21 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 856	Odd...maybe it's some sort of short-lived slang term, I dunno. You still hear it in the US sometimes, though now I'm at a los as to where it came from.

Jul 12, 2005, 09:19 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	There is nothing unlawful about discriminating. If the best man for the job is a different race, and you don't hire him because of his race, then your business will go bankrupt. It's as simple as that. Stop trying to regulate a self regulating practice!