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**Matt W** · Jul 11, 2005, 06:21 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4670379.stm

Quote:

Tens of thousands of people are attending ceremonies marking the 10th anniversary of the massacre of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica.
About 8,000 men and boys were killed by Serbian forces in 1995, in Europe's worst atrocity since World War II.

UK, French and Dutch ministers, and US officials are taking part in a memorial at the Potocari cemetery, where many of the dead are buried.

The remains of 610 newly identified dead will be buried at the same time.

Lest we forget.

Nono · Jul 11, 2005, 10:36 am

Oh, we'll forget. We weren't going to let another Rwanda happen, if you recall. Look at Darfur.

Gorgo · Jul 12, 2005, 07:37 am

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...74&ItemID=8244

Nono · Jul 12, 2005, 09:29 am

Gorgo, I don't know what it is about you (who say you're of Irish descent) and the Serbs. There's definitely something, though.

The article whose link you posted is full of good points that remind us to keep the whole nightmare -- and its coverage by the media -- in perspective. But it doesn't do a damn thing to get the Serbs off the hook. Facts are facts. Srebrenica is one such fact (as were the camps). And if you want a rock-solid source of Western guilt, it's that Mladic and Karadzic are still free today rather than strung up by their hemorrhoids.

Gorgo · Jul 12, 2005, 03:29 pm

There is no reasonable evidence that the Serbs 'Massacred' 8,000 people, no reasonable evidence of camps that were any different than anyone else's camps. In fact, there is reasonable evidence that most of that was cooked up.

Nono · Jul 13, 2005, 04:07 am

There's tonnes of evidence (literally). But you're too loyal to the Serbs-as-Victims-of-Endless-Persecution myth to see it. You're the functional equivalent of the global warming "skeptics", the Flat Earth Society: you'll dismiss all evidence as fabrication and you'll grasp at any straw -- no matter how slender and ridiculous -- to let the Serbs off the hook.

Gorgo · Jul 13, 2005, 10:35 am

There is reasonable evidence of global warming, and there is reasonable evidence that the earth is not flat. There is no reasonable evidence that the Serbs "massacred" 8,000 people. If you use that article as a base point for research, you'll find that you'll see how shaky your position is. IMO.

**Matt W** · Jul 13, 2005, 10:41 am

Then how do you explain the mass graves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4669125.stm

Gorgo · Jul 13, 2005, 11:48 am

I'm on the road, so I'll read this later, but you read it very carefully for the evidence that there were 8,000 people that were "massacred," and not a couple of thousand combatants that died in fighting before I reply.

Gorgo · Jul 15, 2005, 06:31 am

Yes, I see an article that talks about how about 2,000 corpses are being identified. I think if you'll look into it, you'll see that all of those corpses but about one are male. I think you'll see that some of them are Serb. I don't think you'll find any evidence of 8,000 people being "massacred."

**Matt W** · Jul 15, 2005, 06:48 am

Perhaps. However, massacres did indeed take place by Serbs - they are not as innocent as you would suggest:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4078234.stm

Gorgo · Jul 15, 2005, 07:44 am

Executions took place. Abuses took place. I'm not arguing against that. Again, did you read the article that I posted?

None of that has anything to do with the notion that 8,000 people were "massacred."

Nono · Jul 15, 2005, 08:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: MattW

Perhaps. However, massacres did indeed take place by Serbs - they are not as innocent as you would suggest.

Why say "perhaps", Matt? The correct response here is "Bullshit!"
The events in Srebrenica have been exhaustively investigated, not least by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. And they are confirmed by, among others, French General Philippe Morillon -- who did his level personal best to protect Srebrenica but was let down by the international community -- and the rightly hangdog, shame-faced Dutch soldiers who were right there.

Gorgo has bought into Serb paranoia. I'm still curious to know why.

Gorgo · Jul 15, 2005, 09:47 am

Quote:

Quote by: Nono

Gorgo has bought into Serb paranoia.

Again, no one has brought me any reasonable evidence that 8,000 people were "massacred." We have confirmed stories of nasty things happen, but this is not evidence that 8,000 people were 'massacred.' Your ideas that I think anyone is innocent in these matters is Manichean. Either 8,000 people were massacred, or the Serbs are saints. Did anyone read the article that I posted?

**Matt W** · Jul 15, 2005, 09:55 am

Quote:

Did anyone read the article that I posted?

I have, and it does pose some interesting questions. I'm digging around for some more info & will hopefully come back to this at some point!

Nono · Jul 15, 2005, 11:39 am

Yeah, Gorgo, I read it. It asks us what we think the Croats are, a bunch of choirboys or something, and what about the US and all its machinations and hypocrisy? Etc., etc.
You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of the holocaust deniers, the show-me-convincing-proof-that-there-were-gas-chambers-at-Auschwitz brigade. Oh yeah and what about Stalin and Dresden while we're at it?

Balkan history is one long bloodbath in which all sides have eagerly participated. There's plenty of crime and hypocrisy to go around. But the Bosnian Serbs (with help from Belgrade) did hideous things throughout, not least shelling Sarajevo and then picking off the survivors with rifle fire. They're locked in their own, bloody medieval mythology. Doubting Srebrenica is like doubting the Apollo moon landings: an act of mental contortionism.

Gorgo · Jul 15, 2005, 10:33 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Nono

Doubting Srebrenica

Again, you keep saying that but you offer no reasonable evidence that 8,000 people were "massacred." I think that whole thing has been debunked fairly well.

Nono · Jul 16, 2005, 05:36 am

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

I think that whole thing has been debunked fairly well.

You're on a forensic acid trip, man. Just what would you consider "reasonable evidence"? Mass spontaneous confessions? You're sounding like a flat-earther, Gorgo.

PatrickHenry · Jul 16, 2005, 06:11 am

Can we stick to straight debate here, and stay off the ad hominems? Znet's article makes a lot of sense. I don't trust any foreign war that the US finds itself fighting to be as stated. The hidden agenda of disinformation is worth looking into.

Gorgo · Jul 16, 2005, 06:33 am

Quote:

Quote by: Nono

You're sounding like a flat-earther, Gorgo.

You sound like someone without a leg to stand on.

Jul 11, 2005, 10:36 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,450	Oh, we'll forget. We weren't going to let another Rwanda happen, if you recall. Look at Darfur. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 12, 2005, 09:29 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,450	Gorgo, I don't know what it is about you (who say you're of Irish descent) and the Serbs. There's definitely something, though. The article whose link you posted is full of good points that remind us to keep the whole nightmare -- and its coverage by the media -- in perspective. But it doesn't do a damn thing to get the Serbs off the hook. Facts are facts. Srebrenica is one such fact (as were the camps). And if you want a rock-solid source of Western guilt, it's that Mladic and Karadzic are still free today rather than strung up by their hemorrhoids. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 13, 2005, 04:07 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,450	There's tonnes of evidence (literally). But you're too loyal to the Serbs-as-Victims-of-Endless-Persecution myth to see it. You're the functional equivalent of the global warming "skeptics", the Flat Earth Society: you'll dismiss all evidence as fabrication and you'll grasp at any straw -- no matter how slender and ridiculous -- to let the Serbs off the hook. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 13, 2005, 10:41 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 5,718	Then how do you explain the mass graves? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4669125.stm I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 15, 2005, 06:48 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 5,718	Perhaps. However, massacres did indeed take place by Serbs - they are not as innocent as you would suggest:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4078234.stm I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 12, 2005, 07:37 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...74&ItemID=8244

Jul 12, 2005, 03:29 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	There is no reasonable evidence that the Serbs 'Massacred' 8,000 people, no reasonable evidence of camps that were any different than anyone else's camps. In fact, there is reasonable evidence that most of that was cooked up.

Jul 13, 2005, 10:35 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	There is reasonable evidence of global warming, and there is reasonable evidence that the earth is not flat. There is no reasonable evidence that the Serbs "massacred" 8,000 people. If you use that article as a base point for research, you'll find that you'll see how shaky your position is. IMO.

Jul 13, 2005, 11:48 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	I'm on the road, so I'll read this later, but you read it very carefully for the evidence that there were 8,000 people that were "massacred," and not a couple of thousand combatants that died in fighting before I reply.

Jul 15, 2005, 06:31 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Yes, I see an article that talks about how about 2,000 corpses are being identified. I think if you'll look into it, you'll see that all of those corpses but about one are male. I think you'll see that some of them are Serb. I don't think you'll find any evidence of 8,000 people being "massacred."

Jul 15, 2005, 07:44 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Executions took place. Abuses took place. I'm not arguing against that. Again, did you read the article that I posted? None of that has anything to do with the notion that 8,000 people were "massacred."

Jul 15, 2005, 11:39 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 6,450	Yeah, Gorgo, I read it. It asks us what we think the Croats are, a bunch of choirboys or something, and what about the US and all its machinations and hypocrisy? Etc., etc. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of the holocaust deniers, the show-me-convincing-proof-that-there-were-gas-chambers-at-Auschwitz brigade. Oh yeah and what about Stalin and Dresden while we're at it? Balkan history is one long bloodbath in which all sides have eagerly participated. There's plenty of crime and hypocrisy to go around. But the Bosnian Serbs (with help from Belgrade) did hideous things throughout, not least shelling Sarajevo and then picking off the survivors with rifle fire. They're locked in their own, bloody medieval mythology. Doubting Srebrenica is like doubting the Apollo moon landings: an act of mental contortionism. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 16, 2005, 06:11 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,435	Can we stick to straight debate here, and stay off the ad hominems? Znet's article makes a lot of sense. I don't trust any foreign war that the US finds itself fighting to be as stated. The hidden agenda of disinformation is worth looking into. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams Last edited by PatrickHenry; Jul 16, 2005 at 06:25 am.