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G. Adams · Jul 10, 2005, 04:11 pm

Agreed, I think the MMA tournaments have shown that all fighters must be able to both grapple and strike. However, that is with gloves. If it was bareknuckle, as real fights are, the first punch is more important, if it's well timed and accurate, it's all over. Another reason to have pankration.

**Matt W** · Jul 10, 2005, 05:38 pm

Well, they decided not to replace them with anything. Gutted!

tman_ndsu08 · Jul 11, 2005, 06:03 pm

Quote:

What good is grappling a man to the ground, gaining back, or side control, and then being stuck in a position where you can't finish them and they are pummeling your ears and nose into mush?

If you have control, then they can't even reach you with their fists. And having control means you should be easily able to conplete a finishing move (sleeper, full nelson, etc.).

Osborn F Enready · Jul 11, 2005, 06:42 pm

T-Man said:
If you have control, then they can't even reach you with their fists.

I say:
Well, then you are speaking of some type of side control, or back control I have never heard or seen before.

The only way to insure that you couldn't be hit, would be to pin both arms, and legs, and to do that would allow a rollout, reverse, spin, flip or any other various move, or wouldn't allow you a way to finish the fight by knockout or submission.(Having control is only good until the person on the bottom gains enough strength back from resting on the bottom, to mount a good attack or spin-out. If your opponent will not submit, you only tire yourself by maintaining control with no means to finish.)

When I said side control, I meant you had control to keep that person from getting up, getting leverage enough to strike you "effectively" meaning leverage and body motion affected punches that have knockout potential with each shot.

We have all seen a fight where someone flailing wildly has gotten a lucky, knockout punch that ended the fight. I have seen several times when a person has had someone in a side control position, but could still be struck by wild flailing, or panic punches. Back control is much harder to hit the person behind you, but is still possible if the person controlling them has to stop controlling and try to figure out a way to finish someone, as opposed to just doing it through reflex of proper training.

My point was that American wrestling has many excellent fundamentals, but do not have a wide enough, or all encompassing array of finishing moves for different positions. When wrestlers get into streetfights, you will often see them get the other person to the ground, and then flail at them with wild punches or kicks until they submit or get knocked out. If they were trained in more moves, they could end the fight without bloodying their knuckles. Incorporating Jiu-Jitsu locks, chokes, and strikes is absolutely beneficial to a good practitioner of american wrestling for real world self-defense.

bugsbunny04 · Oct 10, 2005, 02:29 am

My vote is for Rugby, even if it is sevens. I would rather play Rugby than american football. I prefer 15's, both because it is the original and because I'm a fatty.

Jul 10, 2005, 04:11 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Agreed, I think the MMA tournaments have shown that all fighters must be able to both grapple and strike. However, that is with gloves. If it was bareknuckle, as real fights are, the first punch is more important, if it's well timed and accurate, it's all over. Another reason to have pankration. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jul 10, 2005, 05:38 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 6,161	Well, they decided not to replace them with anything. Gutted! I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jul 11, 2005, 06:42 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	T-Man said: If you have control, then they can't even reach you with their fists. I say: Well, then you are speaking of some type of side control, or back control I have never heard or seen before. The only way to insure that you couldn't be hit, would be to pin both arms, and legs, and to do that would allow a rollout, reverse, spin, flip or any other various move, or wouldn't allow you a way to finish the fight by knockout or submission.(Having control is only good until the person on the bottom gains enough strength back from resting on the bottom, to mount a good attack or spin-out. If your opponent will not submit, you only tire yourself by maintaining control with no means to finish.) When I said side control, I meant you had control to keep that person from getting up, getting leverage enough to strike you "effectively" meaning leverage and body motion affected punches that have knockout potential with each shot. We have all seen a fight where someone flailing wildly has gotten a lucky, knockout punch that ended the fight. I have seen several times when a person has had someone in a side control position, but could still be struck by wild flailing, or panic punches. Back control is much harder to hit the person behind you, but is still possible if the person controlling them has to stop controlling and try to figure out a way to finish someone, as opposed to just doing it through reflex of proper training. My point was that American wrestling has many excellent fundamentals, but do not have a wide enough, or all encompassing array of finishing moves for different positions. When wrestlers get into streetfights, you will often see them get the other person to the ground, and then flail at them with wild punches or kicks until they submit or get knocked out. If they were trained in more moves, they could end the fight without bloodying their knuckles. Incorporating Jiu-Jitsu locks, chokes, and strikes is absolutely beneficial to a good practitioner of american wrestling for real world self-defense. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Oct 10, 2005, 02:29 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
bugsbunny04 Untrained Fodder Location: Alabama Posts: 1,354	My vote is for Rugby, even if it is sevens. I would rather play Rugby than american football. I prefer 15's, both because it is the original and because I'm a fatty. Clean toe caps and a filthy mouth! Low morals and high morale!