London Underground Explodes

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Agreed . It is an international police effort, not workable on a military level in the Middle East. THAT engagement is about something else entirely, and amounts to hitting a hornet's nest with a stick.

Absolutely. You'll never be able to hunt them down if you alienate a good portion of the middle east and lose the cooperation of the local citizens. We've already paid dearly to learn this lesson, it's called Hearts and Minds.

[Jack]

I'm not sure how I got on this (spam) mailing list, but today's post is rather interesting:

London Explosions - A message from Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain to the Muslim community “And surely, We shall try you till We test those who strive hard (for the Cause of Allah) and the patient ones, and We shall test your facts (i.e. the one who is a liar, and the one who is truthful).” [TMQ Muhammad:31] Dear brothers and sisters. Today several bomb explosions created havoc through London - although information about the events is still coming in, it is clear that many have died and have been injured. It is also clear that the world’s leaders congregating at the G8 summit in Gleneagles have quickly taken the opportunity to further their rhetoric to justify their ‘war on terror’. The media have already started speculating - talk of suicide bombings and ‘Islamist websites’ claiming responsibility for the explosions will only further the suspicion against our community. At such a time - where our community faces questions, accusations and calls for condemnation - we need to reflect upon how we react, for this time is a test for us and like all tests, Allah (swt) will question us on how we overcame these tests. After thought and contemplation about the consequences of these events for our community, we want to make the following points as to how we can deal with the aftermath of these events: At a time of tests Islam mandates sabr (patience). Sabr does not mean we give up the truth at the first test. Rather it means to rely upon Allah (swt), ask for His (swt) help and follow His (swt) command without leaving it due to the test. Allah (swt) raised this Ummah to carry the message of Islam and continue speaking the truth, despite provocation and despite the great tests we face. Indeed speaking the truth about the colonisation of the Muslim world and the killing, murder and rape of our Ummah by Western governments is of the highest obligations. The events in London will be used by these governments to silence our Ummah and detach us from the feelings of our Ummah. We must also carry da’wah to the non-Muslims about Islam in order for them to sense the greatness of our deen and our solutions. At a time when fingers will be pointed at us from the wider community we need to come together as a community with one voice. Yes, the rules of Islam do not allow the harming of innocent civilians, but at the same time the rules of Islam do not allow us to condemn Muslims with little evidence in order to remove the pressure from ourselves. Condemnation with scant information will only aid the leaders of the West who want to use fear as a tool to change our Ummah and our Deen as well as allow them to arrest more Muslims unjustly under draconian terror laws. It is possible in the days ahead that symbols of the Muslim community such as mosques and schools may be targets for vandalism; it is also foreseeable that our Muslim sisters may be at the forefront of verbal abuse or even attack. We advise the community to come together and collectively prepare the most appropriate arrangements to protect ourselves from such dangers. Lastly we must make dua. The best dua is to ask Allah (swt) to raise our Ummah and our message so that we once again can live under a just Islamic rule (Khilafah State) and that our Ummah can implement Islam which will become a shining light in the darkness facing the world. Brothers and sisters! Stay strong and firm to Islam, for if we stay firm with Islam, Allah (swt) will assist us and raise our situation. "No reason have we why we should not put our trust on Allah. Indeed He Has guided us to the Ways we (follow). We shall certainly bear with patience all the hurt you may cause us. For those who put their trust should put their trust on Allah." [TMQ Al-Ibrahim: 12] Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain 7 July 2005 / 1 Jumada al-Thani 1426

I can't say that I have any idea what they're talking about, except reading between the lines I think I see another conspiracy-theorist.

[Trotsky]

That message has been discredited already. The group responsible for the Madrid bombings are being linked to this attck, British Intel are saying that the group my be home-based. This "new" group has been dismissed by British Inteligence as a hoax

[Wonderland]

I am new to these forums, having recieved an invite to join a few weeks ago, but having been involved in the bombings today (my train was pulling into Liverpool St. Station when the bomb went off) I wanted to join to hear what everyone was saying about the incident.

At street level, in the shadow of the disaster that has happened, there isn't much talk of blame, terrorism, hate or revenge - instead peope were almost stoic in their attitude, pulling their socks up and deciding to get on with things. From out of fear comes the fact that people have the wish to pull together, to help each other out.

I was taken into a shop and made a cup of tea and given a bar of chocolate by a shop keeper wishing to help out and get people over their shock. Sooty, shaken and strangely calm, people lent each other phones to try and contact loved ones, people shared the few comforts that they still had. Strangers hugged when a little bit of contact was needed and people nursed each others wounds.

I am not trying to romanticise what was quite a harrowing experience, but the felings of those out of the immediate area seems to be out of kilter with what was actually going on at the scene. I guess I am shocked and relieved, nd I am saddened that there are groups in the world that would want to do this to innocent people, but I am even more sddened by the fact that there are actually individuals so lacking in love for mankind that they think these actions are justifiable.

To anyone who has family members/friends caught up in this I send my condolences and best wishes

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Wonderland I guess I am shocked and relieved, nd I am saddened that there are groups in the world that would want to do this to innocent people, but I am even more sddened by the fact that there are actually individuals so lacking in love for mankind that they think these actions are justifiable.

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but please don't mistake verbalizing the reasoning behind this attack as anything close to justifying it. There is no justification for an attack on innocent civilians.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Wonderland I am even more sddened by the fact that there are actually individuals so lacking in love for mankind that they think these actions are justifiable.

Who in this thread justified the bombings?

[Wonderland]

Zebedee, PatrickHenry, you both misread what I wrote.

I think everyone is jumping to conclusions now - I wasn't referring to anyone on the boards. If you actually read it again you shou se that I am saying that i find it sad to believe that there are individual who think that their actions of killing an terorising innocent people is justifiable - if they didn't believe this then they couldn't carry out these actions.

Please read what I actually wrote and understand that I was talking about the BOMBERS, and not the view of people on this board... I really am not one to get involved in bickering and laying blame, and I have had a tough day so I am off to bed

[Whodoe!]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Who in this thread justified the bombings?

Not that it is relevant, but this thread has suggestions that the actions of a nation's past (colonial period) set it up for payback. This is in the same context used by Ward Churchill. For me, this is a bloodthirsty and flawed logic exactly contrary to what is needed during difficult times.

[Jack]

Welcome to Volconvo, Wonderland. Don't mind us, we just get so used to being opinionated, we forget our manners sometimes. I'm glad to hear you're well and weren't hurt. We share your feelings for those who were.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Isherwood Welcome to Volconvo, Wonderland. Don't mind us, we just get so used to being opinionated, we forget our manners sometimes. I'm glad to hear you're well and weren't hurt. We share your feelings for those who were.

Thank you Isherwood, my sentiments exactly.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Whodoe! Not that it is relevant, but this thread has suggestions that the actions of a nation's past (colonial period) set it up for payback. This is in the same context used by Ward Churchill. For me, this is a bloodthirsty and flawed logic exactly contrary to what is needed during difficult times.

I think you'll find just one person has attempted to justify these attacks by citing Britains colonial past.......I think the rest of us are of the opinion that nothing justifies the targeting and murder of innocent civillians. Military targtes being hit (and by military targets I don't mean a pub that a squaddie goes to at the weekend, or a public bus station that just happens to have buses running out of it to a military base), I've got no problem with that, Political targets....dodgy but still don't have a major problem.....civillian targets are just out, no matter what side you're on.

[popi]

trouble is when some arsehole dictator decides to build his command bunker or his rathole under a block of civilian apartments of places his antiaircraft missiles in the middle of a souk then complains that a lot of innocent civilians have been killed. "ahh mr. president i'm afraid we just lost most of our men due to incoming but we cant fire back cause its in a civilian area" "oh thats ok then general"

[MerlinsByte]

By WONDERLAND...I am saddened that there are groups in the world that would want to do this to innocent people, but I am even more sddened by the fact that there are actually individuals so lacking in love for mankind that they think these actions are justifiable.

mb writes..I agree, after I got over the anger I was overcome by sadness.I turned the RCA tube off and took my dogs for a walk. Its nice to see someone who has empthy (as many here do here at volconvo) but from you is seems somehow grossly tangible. (that was a compliment)

mb

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tinybear So does anybody still believe Al Qaeda and their cohorts are freedom fighters? They're murderers!! They should be hunted down and eliminated with no mercy shown.

Quote by: Sgt. Rock Matt, I agree that the reasons for the MURDERS of people by terroists do have a root problem that must be delt with. But quite frankly, if it were my family member that was murdered I wouldn't give a rip about the bad guys feelings or complaints. I'd want vengance, and I don't mean justice. I know thats a hard statment but it's how I would feel.

I agree with both of you. However, neither of you seem to be aware that in addition to the bad guys, we are currently killing many innocent civilians at the same time. The U.S. isn't even keeping track of how many civilians have been killed in this senseless war. It's like they don't even count at all, they're nothing. 17 were killed in Afghanistan last week, and they didn't even make the headlines.

Consider the reactions of the 50 or so families of the dead in London, and how much they'd like some "vengance", then think of the thousands of similar families that we have put in the same position in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you really think the London survivors are any more pissed off than Fallujah survivors?

How are you ever going to hunt down the London murderers if you create new anti-"coalition" extremists by killing civilians in every new anti-terrorist action the military initiates? Do you think you can obtain either justice or vengeance for your lost family members by killing someone else's?

Hunt down and kill the murderers? Good idea, why didn't Bush think of that?

[Sgt. Rock]

Just wondering (boy this could get me in trouble) how sure are the powers that be that it is an attack by al quida? Is it possible that its another group that dislikes the UK such as the IRA? It seemes to me that almost everything that happens is "al quida".

[Sgt. Rock]

[quote=Zeebadee]

Consider the reactions of the 50 or so families of the dead in London, and how much they'd like some "vengance", then think of the thousands of similar families that we have put in the same position in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you really think the London survivors are any more pissed off than Fallujah survivors?

Zee I do understand what your saying but I was talking from a personal level. I do not think it is ever right to take another life unless it is done defending you family or yourself or as punishment for some crimes. However it seems to me that the iraqi people have some responsibility for their current situation for several reasons. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me as long as you respond in a civilized manner .

1) Saddam chose to ignore the resolutions under threat of invasion

2) A section of the people of Iraq supportted Sadam

3) The people of Iraq could have chosen to overthrow Sadam but did not

4) The majority of people in Fallujah were killing our troops and if you shoot at our guys for whatever reason, they are gonna shoot back, and 9 times out of ten you loose. :eek:

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Sgt. Rock 1) Saddam chose to ignore the resolutions under threat of invasion 2) A section of the people of Iraq supportted Sadam 3) The people of Iraq could have chosen to overthrow Sadam but did not 4) The majority of people in Fallujah were killing our troops and if you shoot at our guys for whatever reason, they are gonna shoot back, and 9 times out of ten you loose. :eek:

1. Israel routinely ignores UN resolutions. Nothing ever happens to it.

2. A section of the people of the United States still supports Bush.

3. I agree. So why should we sacrifice our troops to do it for them?

4. Can you please provide some evidence for the "majority" claim? And anyway, innocent people were, and still are being killed.

[tinybear]

Here ya go: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0401-01.htm

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tinybear Here ya go: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0401-01.htm

Nothing in your link makes any claim that a "majority of people in Fallujah were killing our troops". In fact, no one even knows the current population of the city. There's simply no way to substantiate such a claim.

[Sgt. Rock]

Quote by: Zeebadee 1. Israel routinely ignores UN resolutions. Nothing ever happens to it. 2. A section of the people of the United States still supports Bush. 3. I agree. So why should we sacrifice our troops to do it for them? 4. Can you please provide some evidence for the "majority" claim? And anyway, innocent people were, and still are being killed.

Zee I am not saying that innocent Iraqi people are not victims of the fighting. Any military engagements that involve shooting usually result in non combatants being killed. This is a sad fact. It still does not change the fact that the Marines were being fired upon. If these people don't want to fight they can surrender. It seemes to me that the avarage Iraqi wants what you and I want. A home, family, job and freedom to worship, read, talk, etc. I think 98% of them are peace loving people but they have a violent group that is willing to kill even their own people to further their ends.