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Thread: WikiLeaks, Freedom of Information on Steroids

  1. #145
    Igneous Magma WithATwist's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: minorwork View Post
    Your readiness to label Manning a hero is blinding you.
    I'm not calling him a hero. I'm not calling him anything other than naive.

    Busted for assault doesn't mean anything? Doesn't speak to the man's character? How many times a week do you assault someone? None, I'd guess. Any bias is due to Manning's own actions that are being brought to light.
    No it doesn't speak of his character, it speaks of those that wish to color his character with irrelevant information. We don't know what the circumstances behind the assault charge are...for all we know, he could have been morally in the right and defending another person, or standing up against a bully. Or, he could be a violent asshole. The point is, we don't know anything other than the impression that they are trying to create of him, which is a character assassination of him in the court of public opinion.

    The assault charge is as irrelevant as the two mentions of his interests in gay rights, and what a girl from his past said of him. What does ANY of that have to do with the act of treason? They are all things designed to do nothing but slur his character...like they've done to Assange with 2 rape charges....someone I was speaking to this morning said that they read a news report that one of the accusers has strong links to the CIA. Didn't read it myself, so no link, but I'm interested to see what pans-out. I'm not saying I believe it to be true yet, though I wouldn't be surprised. Let's see what happens.

    The only relevant information is that which pertains directly to the case, not the character of the person. Anything to do with character, is nothing more than slur and an attempt to discredit the person above and beyond what they are accused of.

    Put it this way, they're certainly not telling us that these guys are loving husbands, contributors to their respective communities, or are stamp collectors, are they? Yet these things too would have the same amount of relevence...NONE! See what I mean?

    The hell I can't. Should I compare Manning's situation to yours at 22? I only know of my own. You recall I mentioned how wrong I was on things at the wise old age of 22? My comparison is to our self-righteousness and appetites for instant gratification of our desires. I empathize with Manning but I won't excuse him. I was not excused for my youthfulness and lack of experience, and certainly not for my vain idealism.
    Yes, but you conceded that you made errors also at 22. This guy is 22! Let me know when you think he's allowed to make that error or two, will you? That's the point I'm making. Sure, it's a biggy! But it lacks more wisdom than contains criminal behavior, IMO. He could have managed the situation better.

    Profit? How does that work? Manning can say he broke the trust because God told him to do so. Doesn't alter the facts of what he did. You think intent makes a difference? If he intended his actions as an assault, as revenge he can swing, but if his cause was noble he should walk away a hero? I might think so if I was still that 22 year old idealist. I'd be wrong.
    I was referring to Assange with the profit motive, not Manning. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Assange gave the material to 5 news outlets....they pay for information, and for this, they would pay big, for basically the ones he chose had exclusivity of a region. And as I think of it, he quite possibly could have even made more money, had he forced those 5 into a bidding war for global exclusivity.

    A true pacifist, eh? Turn the other cheek in all things? Nothing is worth fighting for?
    DEFENDING your country is worth fighting for. Not invading. And there are many other sorts of fights than military ones. Don't worry, I stand up and speak out, and often to my own detriment....I'm a trouble-maker. It's just that I've finally learnt the system where I work so well now, that I understand how to use the system against itself...it's a complex array of government bodies that oversee each other, and a matter of working out which is the most potent, and then employing them to do their job by giving them the correct information. So in effect, you set a pack of dogs upon the pack of dogs that are the problem. But that's patience and experience (and self preservation) in contrast to the rash exuberance of youth. But I learnt the hard way, and it's cost me a few jobs, don't worry. Like I've said, I'm a Schmuck idealist...what's worse is that I understand this, but find myself compelled. And thankfully, it's not the most powerful and pervasive military power in the world that I buck-up against....I would have been dead or in a dungeon somewhere decades ago!

    So as I said, I sort of see where Manning is coming from. But in saying that, I also understand that many things that look bad to the observer, particularly the uninitiated and inexperienced one, are actually the correct things to be happening, so the observer is the one that is out of context. Thus also, many things that look perfectly normal, are the wrong things to be happening in context to the situation...or more clearly, a facade. So I'm sure that some of the material he uncovered that looks bad, is actually not, for we don't know the context. But again, some of it will be in context, and so worthy of our disgust.

    But killing for the profit of others, particularly corrupt politicians and oil companies? I may as well contract myself out and be a hit-man, and actually make some money for risking my life....lousy pension plan, but great money while you're working.

    Cheers.
    I dream of a better tomorrow... where the motives of a chicken don't come into question.

  2. #146
    Certainty=Bad scholardude's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Dan74 View Post
    Woah! They made the site crash for a whole hour! No wonder the media is reporting on this, it's useless bullshit.
    The media does make a giant deal out of it, probably just because it makes a good storyline. The attacks themselves aren't all that impressive in nature, though surprisingly simplistic with the right program. I suppose it's the fact that someone is doing something, even if it's pretty ineffectual and done from your mother's basement.
    The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
    -- Bertrand Russell

  3. #147
    Volcanic Erupter
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    I get the impression it isn't just "someone" in a basement, there are quite a few of these "someones" in a lot of basements all over the world. Most of the reporting I've seen describe widespread uncordinated attacks of unprecedented scope, many hackers everywhere are involved.

  4. #148
    Certainty=Bad scholardude's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: rmnunez View Post
    I get the impression it isn't just "someone" in a basement, there are quite a few of these "someones" in a lot of basements all over the world. Most of the reporting I've seen describe widespread uncordinated attacks of unprecedented scope, many hackers everywhere are involved.
    Well they are being coordinated via twitter, anonops, etc., but obviously it's not just one guy from his basement, but the software they have makes these attacks very easy, and not that lasting in their effect, other than psychologically.
    The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.
    -- Bertrand Russell

  5. #149
    Becoming Unstable Thanatos's Avatar
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    I find it hilarious that disinformation kingpins like Alex Jones feel threatened by this guy.

    Alex Jones & Webster Tarpley: The Hidden Agenda Behind WikiLeaks

    In other news, Assange has an "information bomb" set to go off if he dies or is imprisoned. It's an encrypted 1.4 gigabyte file containing unredacted classified information, put together for nothing less than blackmailing the whole damn planet.

    Assange's 'poison pill' file impossible to stop, expert says - CNN.com
    Doesn't that mean most people are trolls?

    No, it means most people on forums are called trolls at one point or another for stating their opinion honestly.

  6. #150
    its not AIDS kancer kid's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Thanatos View Post
    I find it hilarious that disinformation kingpins like Alex Jones feel threatened by this guy.

    Alex Jones & Webster Tarpley: The Hidden Agenda Behind WikiLeaks

    In other news, Assange has an "information bomb" set to go off if he dies or is imprisoned. It's an encrypted 1.4 gigabyte file containing unredacted classified information, put together for nothing less than blackmailing the whole damn planet.

    Assange's 'poison pill' file impossible to stop, expert says - CNN.com
    A thread about where to download said file: LINK

  7. #151
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Quote Quote by: Thanatos View Post
    I find it hilarious that disinformation kingpins like Alex Jones feel threatened by this guy.

    Alex Jones & Webster Tarpley: The Hidden Agenda Behind WikiLeaks
    Alex Jones is such a dumbass.

    In other news, Assange has an "information bomb" set to go off if he dies or is imprisoned. It's an encrypted 1.4 gigabyte file containing unredacted classified information, put together for nothing less than blackmailing the whole damn planet.

    Assange's 'poison pill' file impossible to stop, expert says - CNN.com
    I guess this is the "thermonuclear" data that WikiLeaks said is still to be released. I find it incredibly amusing that people are saying that the WikiLeaks cables are useless, when less than 1% of it has been leaked.
    "The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"

  8. #152
    Igneous Magma
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    Here's a letter from Julian Assange that some might find interesting (dated December 8, 2010):

    Don't Shoot Messenger for Revealing Uncomfortable Truths by Julian Assange

    Here's an interesting passage:

    Every time WikiLeaks publishes the truth about abuses committed by US agencies, Australian politicians chant a provably false chorus with the State Department: "You'll risk lives! National security! You'll endanger troops!" Then they say there is nothing of importance in what WikiLeaks publishes. It can't be both. Which is it?

    It is neither. WikiLeaks has a four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed. But the US, with Australian government connivance, has killed thousands in the past few months alone.

    US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn't find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published.

  9. #153
    Stephen Best barts's Avatar
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    It seems the Wikileaks War is heating up.

    Wikileaks' Processing Co. Says It Will Sue Visa For Stopping Payments

    "DataCell, who facilitates those payments towards WikiLeaks, has decided to take up immediate legal action to make donations possible again," the company's chief executive Andreas Fink said in a statement.

    "Visa is hurting WikiLeaks and DataCell in high figures," he said. "Visa users have explicitly expressed their will to send their donations to Wikileaks and Visa is not fulfilling this wish."

    ...

    DataCell said it expected claims to be in the "billions of Euro."

    "This might be very well the end of the credit card business worldwide," Fink wrote.

    "This is not about the brand of Visa, this is about politics and Visa should not be involved in this," he said.
    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd - Voltaire

  10. #154
    Destroyer of Worlds minorwork's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: WithATwist View Post
    The only relevant information is that which pertains directly to the case, not the character of the person. Anything to do with character, is nothing more than slur and an attempt to discredit the person above and beyond what they are accused of.
    What kind of history does a man have and what motivates him to turn traitor are relevant if there is a pattern so such actions can be prevented in the future.
    Put it this way, they're certainly not telling us that these guys are loving husbands, contributors to their respective communities, or are stamp collectors, are they? Yet these things too would have the same amount of relevence...NONE! See what I mean?
    Perhaps such was not the case? If I make headlines and stamp collecting is not mentioned, it's because I don't. If Manning had saved a family from a burning building you suggest it would have been buried?
    Yes, but you conceded that you made errors also at 22. This guy is 22! Let me know when you think he's allowed to make that error or two, will you?
    Allowed? I erred at the age of 45 with others and a man died. I should be allowed that? Are you kidding? I don't think "allowed" is the right word.
    I was referring to Assange with the profit motive, not Manning. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Assange gave the material to 5 news outlets....they pay for information, and for this, they would pay big, for basically the ones he chose had exclusivity of a region. And as I think of it, he quite possibly could have even made more money, had he forced those 5 into a bidding war for global exclusivity.
    Gotcha. Still, money is not the only form of profit. Martyrdom is its own reward.
    So as I said, I sort of see where Manning is coming from. But in saying that, I also understand that many things that look bad to the observer, particularly the uninitiated and inexperienced one, are actually the correct things to be happening, so the observer is the one that is out of context.
    If you manipulated Pfc Manning yourself I could understand that Manning performed admirably correctly and should be honored for his goodness. At least by your agenda of goodness. I doubt you did, so you and I are both out of context observers. Still we comment and explore what motivates traitorous acts.

    But killing for the profit of others, particularly corrupt politicians and oil companies? I may as well contract myself out and be a hit-man, and actually make some money for risking my life....lousy pension plan, but great money while you're working.
    For the U.S. isolation before WWI and WWII there was greater loss of life than if we'd gotten involved earlier. Since the change in strategy away from isolationist policy there has been a reduction in U. S. casualties. So far. United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You harp on politicians and oil companies. Did no one notice how fast things went downhill for Assange when there was just an inkling of releasing bank information? Maybe a coincidence, but the cyber war action seems centered around banking practices. Corrupt politicians and oil companies are chicken feed by comparison of powers abused.
    If the terrain and the map do not agree, follow the terrain.

    When motherhood becomes the fruit of a deep yearning, not the result of ignorance or accident, its children will become a new race.

  11. #155
    Volcanic Erupter
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    Quote Quote by: minorwork View Post
    What kind of history does a man have and what motivates him to turn traitor are relevant if there is a pattern so such actions can be prevented in the future.
    Are you really so sure that Manning's action was as a traitor? If one of Hitler's inner circle had disclosed the Nazi agenda early and that disclosure had prevented WW2, would that also have been a traitorous act??

    Didn't the Nuremburg trials establish that one has an obligation to consider his own conscience before blindly following state established rules? From the little we have so far received from Wikileaks, the state-sanctioned illegal activities made public more than justifies his so-called illegal disclosures.
    I upped my income, up yours.

  12. #156
    afairyist arX's Avatar
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