U.S. Senate says Rice OK'd CIA waterboarding

[rmnunez]

Its presented as an authoritative report from the CIA itself, it is misleading to do so.

[Charlatan]

Torture is unneccessary as when someone is caught with information they abandon that avenue because there is the threat of torture. The best way to deal with it would be to use a lie detector on sensitive topics and then make it known to the enemy that you have some knowledge of their activities making them abandon those plans, which could be anything.

If the west had plans to raid a certain corner of Afghanistan and they had those plans possibly leaked, they would abandon that plan quickly. Same principle, use a lie deterctor for the simplest questions but don;t let the enemy know what you are talkig about. They will panic.

[Charlatan]

Another way to get information from them is to bore them to tears, then put them infront of a television that flashes messages that they see, but are not aware of, then have them draw for the torturers of anything they like. For example they could flash a map of Afghanistan and see where the suspects focuses on. They could flash a picture of guns, and see where they look on a map also flashed to them. Then they could flash another map foucsing on the last one, getting smaller, and pictures of bombs or whatever. This subliminal messaging could reveal a lot and would be pain free.

[Yarn]

rmnunez:

That new CIA report refered by Sonart is actually a blog ("Below the Beltway") by a critical lefty "Libertarian" lawyer named Doug Mataconis,

For the record, libertarians aren't lefties. Lefties are for the government providing a strong social safety, and strong regulations that, when done right, ensure that the capitalist system respects its own long term interests and provides for a strong middle class. Libertarians are against any social safety net except for that provided by voluntary charity, and are of the opinion that capitalism is perfect when it is left alone. Libertarians want the government to do nothing more than provide basic law and order and territorial defense.

Broadly and relatively speaking, the left is for curtailing economic freedom and allowing behavioral freedom, the right is for allowing economic freedom and curtailing behavioral freedom, and libertarians are for allowing both sorts of freedom much more than either the left or right would advise. Libertarians therefore are in the net centrists, but in actuality, they concur with the farest right or farest left opinion on any particular issue. The whole left right categorization scheme doesn't work well when it comes to libertarians.

[rmnunez]

You Libertarians like to think your political perspective is uniquely different, but from a serious conservative point of view its just the same lefty claptrap democrats and other pinko pseudo-socialists have been spouting for eons.

[Matt W]

Let's stick to the topic, please.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[rmnunez]

Tell that to the Libertarian who wants to elaborate on how I've mischaracterized the lefty blogger who falsely claimed a CIA report showed torture was useless in extracting valuable information.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: rmnunez Its presented as an authoritative report from the CIA itself, it is misleading to do so.

Sorry, my bad... the blogger was quoting from a Washington Post report, not a CIA report.

"In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

Moreover, within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," and other top officials called him a "trusted associate" of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.

Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a "fixer" for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 -- and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan. "

I was trying to find the report mentioned in a San Diego Union/Tribune story from last week; Military agency had doubts about harsh techniques

"The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel,” says the document, an unsigned two-page attachment to a memo by the military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. Parts of the attachment, obtained in full by The Washington Post, were quoted in a Senate report on harsh interrogation released this week.

Meanwhile, MCT News Service reported that the CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any “specific imminent attacks,” according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

Quote by: Yarn For the record, libertarians aren't lefties.

Not even close.

Quote by: rmnunez Tell that to the Libertarian who wants to elaborate on how I've mischaracterized the lefty blogger who falsely claimed a CIA report showed torture was useless in extracting valuable information.

Read what I just posted above. It was, in fact, internal Justice Department memos stating that the CIA Inspector General found no proof that torture - AS THE BUSH LEAGUE HAS CLEARLY STATED - had stopped any attacks.

.

[The Black Ghost]

WASHINGTON -- Former U.S. national security adviser Condoleezza Rice verbally OK'd the CIA's request to subject alleged al Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah to waterboarding in July 2002, a decision memorialized a few days later in a secret memo that President Barack Obama's administration declassified last week.

Yeah, and I would have done the same, considering the kinda sh*t he did or may have been planning to do.

Abu Zubaydah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Disinformant]

Don't get focused on the headlights. This is not about Abu Zaubaydah or water-boarding, this is about torture. If you would also authorize sodomy, Black Ghost, you'd be making the same mistake the traitor Condi Rice made. You do like being an American right? You do understand what freedom actually means, don't you? This isn't fox news land, get a grip on yourself, politics isn't about posturing.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: Sonart . A new CIA report seems to indicate that torture has little value in preventing terrorist attacks: - Mar. 2009 .

Revealing that you try to pas off a Washington Post article quoting anomynous government sources as a "New CIA Report"

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: asteroid777 so in so doing this affirmation of the waterboarding technique of torture upon a United States citizen, Condoleeza Rice has cast her die as a person devoid of conscience regarding human life a fellow American. an accused American. .

Abu Zubaydah isnt an American citizen

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: Yarn rmnunez: For the record, libertarians aren't lefties. .

Most libertarians I encounter are of the Anarchist and Libertarian Communist variety, VERY Lefty.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Disinformant Don't get focused on the headlights. This is not about Abu Zaubaydah or water-boarding, this is about torture. If you would also authorize sodomy, Black Ghost, you'd be making the same mistake the traitor Condi Rice made. You do like being an American right? You do understand what freedom actually means, don't you? This isn't fox news land, get a grip on yourself, politics isn't about posturing.

Something that came to mind when reading this is this:

If you like the US, and you like your way of life, and you like your justice system, and all that good stuff..... and it's supposed to be the way things should be done..... then have faith in your system and the availble rights and freedoms given to anybody under that system to bring about the right justice that is allowed in the system/country you believe in.

When idiots like Rice stoop to lower levels of those evil-doers they claim to be protecting you against, they insult and deminish the legitimacy of your system.

When they claim they need to use torture and beatings to protect your way of life and freedoms (taking away other people's freedoms to ensure your own) then that means your way of life isn't strong enough and is a lie..... I don't think it is.... I don't think the US way of life is perfect, but it's strong enough to hold its own without having to resort to brutal tactics that oppress a human's rights.

The system should be strong enough to uphold your own rights and freedoms without having to resort to the removal of rights to those who attack it.... or those you feel shouldn't have any in the first place.

That's what laws are for.... to seperate emotion and come to a fair end-point of justice.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: Praxius When they claim they need to use torture and beatings to protect your way of life and freedoms (taking away other people's freedoms to ensure your own) then that means your way of life isn't strong enough and is a lie..... .

?????uuuuhhhh NO. If you are dead you cannot enjoy those freedoms.

[Praxius]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 ?????uuuuhhhh NO. If you are dead you cannot enjoy those freedoms.

You completely excluded the rest of what I said in order to skew what I meant to suit your own justification which I was directly saying was the problem in the first place.

If you need to resort to brutal tactics that go against many basic human rights in order to protect your "way of life" then you are saying exactly that......

..... that these these methods are required to protect your way of life, thus your way of life is weak and can not stand on its own.

Then your society no longer becomes everything you believed in and wish to uphold..... your society becomes more towards this oppressive society which deems torture, suffering and oppression as a nessicity to uphold freedom and basic human rights.

Does this make any sense to you?

Does this seem a little contradictory to you?

When you start to think that your own freedoms and basic human rights trump other people's freedoms and basic human rights based on emotional arguments and trying to justify how the system you believe in should only be applied to certain people, determined by your own bias..... then your system is shallow and holds no value due to your own actions.

You're system is better then that.... at least I used to think it was.

How are you supposed to show your way of life as being the example of freedom and justice, when you apply a totally different system in it's place to those who question and/or attack it?

[tengers]

This seems to come down to values versus security, or insecurity, if you look at it that way. The survey I posted on the waterboarding thread shows that 55% of Republicans consider this method of interogation perfectly fine versus 78% of Liberals who oppose. Overall, 58% of Americans oppose, but that still leaves a lot of people in support, and when they are in power, that is how this all came to be.

[barnhardt2010]

Quote by: Praxius When you start to think that your own freedoms and basic human rights trump other people's freedoms and basic human rights based on emotional arguments

Not really an emotional issue. Of course my freedom to live my life in peace trumps Al Qaedas freedom to wage jihad against the world.

[Praxius]

Quote by: barnhardt2010 Not really an emotional issue. Of course my freedom to live my life in peace trumps Al Qaedas freedom to wage jihad against the world.

Nobody's disputing that.... however the methods that are used in order to protect your freedom are in question.

Here's a little head scratcher for you:

everytime we hear of the Taliban or Al'Q kidnapping or capturing someone, those actually released for whatever reason, or those who survive to tell their story, via rescue, etc.... all have stated that they were treated well..... they were fed, they wern't tortured, and besides waiting to be killed like a pig, they were treated quite well.

Now flip over to the US, who capture, torture, electrocute, border-line drown, rape, assault, deprive their prisoners of sleep, so on and so on..... the US treats their prisoners (The terr'ists at least) as if they're some kind of side-show entertainment and diserve no respect at all, or rights, and wish to make examples out of those who dare question or attack the mighty United States.

Exactly what kind of message is that sending out?

The ok'ing of torture and removal of basic human rights and proper legal representation of these suspected terr'ists removes any and all justification for being the better society/nation that represents freedoms and rights. And when a nation which speaks so highly of freedom and rights can easily chuck those freedoms and rights away as they please, makes the whole thing a living joke.

Most of these suspected terr'ists have been aquitted/charges dropped you may have noticed..... so all the torture and the removal of their rights and freedoms were based around fear mongering and some unjustified mentality that torturing these people was worth it...... even though anybody would say anything they were told to say under those conditions, even when they are in fact innocent.

And when you only have some shoddy hearsay from someone who mistaken you for someone else or overheard something they should have minded their business with..... along with a confession brought about from torture..... you just end up with a big load of wasted resources, wasted time, wasted money, wasted man-power and some innocent person being tortured and stuck in a hole for months on end..... having their rights and freedoms trampled on..... all for the sake of "National Security and Freedom"..... simply because none of the above can be used in a court of law.... which is why Bush invented this screwed up new court system for enemy-combatants...... or is it enemy-non-combatants now?

Who cares, it's a crock of a legal system and shouldn't have been allowed to be created in the first place.

And it's easy to try and justify torturing these people when you have no faces to put into the situation..... so i'll do it for you now:



Maher Arar
Maher Arar

A Message from Maher Arar It was four years ago that the horrible ordeal I suffered first began. People ask me repeatedly how, during this time, I have been able to cope with the stress of surviving torture, the stress of not being able to find a job, the stress endured at the inquiry, and the stress from the countless hours I spend doing media interviews and talking to my lawyers on the phone. The answers are simple: I draw my strength from my faith; from my loving, caring, strong wife; and from the support and generosity I have received from Canadians. I have rediscovered Canada through its people, people who made me feel proud of being Canadian. What has also given me the determination to persevere is the obligation I have felt as a human being to keep my case alive in hope that the attention will help other innocent people. Three years ago, I made a very difficult decision to tell my painful, personal story to the Canadian public. I made it clear at that time that I wanted to achieve three objectives......

[barnhardt2010]

Revealing that you use an example of someone who was tortured by Syria to make your point regarding the US.
And care to cite an example of this hospitality of Alqaeda and the Taliban shown to those theyve captured in battle?