Georgian army moves to retake South Ossetia

[grandpa]

The Associated Press: Georgian army moves to retake South Ossetia DZHAVA, Georgia (AP) — Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, prompting Moscow to send tanks into the region in a furious response that threatens to engulf Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, and Russia in all-out war. Hundreds were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

Honestly, I didn't hear much about the war in 1992. Anyway, this could obviously have global implications. What are your thoughts?

Grandpa h.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Tough looking situation to take sides on even without the fact that the georgians are U.S. allies, which clouds the issue further.

[Nono]

Georgia is on the pipeline route from Central Asia, so their government is an "ally" of the US (anyone would qualify as long as they pass the petrol). And this pisses off the Russians, who therefore support Abkhaz separatists (the way the Indians supported Bangladeshi separatists when it was part of Pakistan).

Do you see Saakashvili in his TV appearance with the EU flag right next to him? Interesting symbolism there LOL.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Russian forces battle Georgians

[Gods_Mercenary]

This is an ally in fact, given that their troops fight along side ours, and that they have little choice between kissing up to the Americans or being dominated by the Russians.

Do you see Saakashvili in his TV appearance with the EU flag right next to him? Interesting symbolism there LOL.

Why? he wants to join, no? though odd that he puts it next to him before they are a member.

[Nono]

I'm not out of sympathy with the Georgians, given Russian aggressiveness all around its borders. I just said it's an interesting use of symbolism. But it does look like the Georgians started this.

Wanting to join the EU isn't the same as being a member.
OK, the situation is dire, obviously, and this constitutes a dramatic appeal. Well, good luck to Saakaschvili with his appeal. He may have been smarter not to play with fire in the first place.
And his attack apparently caused something like 1,500 civilian lives. Nice.

The Neue Zürcher Zeitung is quoting the Georgians as saying the Russians bombed installations over night just outside Tbilisi, with hundreds of dead and injured. I can't find any trace of this in the Anglo media for the moment.

Yes, ass-kissing is what it's all about in today's oil market. And if you've got it -- as the Russians do, bigtime -- you can engage in unlimited ball-breaking.

[Matt W]

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Russian jets attack Georgian town

Here we are. Looks like the Russians are aiming to annex Tskhinvali, at the very least.

[Thanatos]

Umm...what happens to oil prices if that pipeline is damaged? It only moves a million barrels a day so its not the end of the world, but I was starting to really enjoy $3.73 a gallon gas.

[xyzer]

Russia just can't stand by without meddling with the renmnants of its once larger empire? Georgia has been recognized as an independent Republic ever since the break up of the old Soviet Empire a decade or so back.
It's my understanding the Georgia consiste of only 5 million or so people but it does provide Russia with food products that cant be produced in the much harsher climate to the north(wine, citrus etc) plus oil.
IAs usual the troulbe stems from the Muslim element. The Ossians are a Muslim break away group. I don't think Georgia wants to antagonize Russia which is a main source of trade for its economy. Thats why its strange that Russia would destroy Gorgian air fields?

[jose]

Quote by: xyzer IAs usual the troulbe stems from the Muslim element. The Ossians are a Muslim break away group.

You made that up didn´t you

The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages under Georgian and Byzantine influence.

South Ossetia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jose]

Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources: Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat.

DEBKAfile - Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

A few days after Russia shot down a Georgian unmanned aircraft over the breakaway region of Abkhazia, Moscow has asked Israel to confirm if the aircraft was in fact Israeli made. (snip) a security official in Jerusalem has confirmed that the aircraft were in fact manufactured by the Israeli company El bit Systems

Russia to J'lem: Was downed Georgian drone Israeli-made? - Haaretz - Israel News
The US also has a defence agreement with Georgia

The Georgian parliament ratified the bilateral agreement on defense cooperation in late March. . Under the agreement’s provisions, US military personnel are allowed visa-free entry and exit from Georgia, are permitted to carry weapons and are immune from prosecution in Georgian courts. The agreement also grants the US military to deploy hardware without impediments on Georgian territory.

EurasiaNet Eurasia Insight - US-Georgian Security Cooperation Agreement Provokes Outcry in Russia

[Nono]

Quote by: xyzer I don't think Georgia wants to antagonize Russia.

You don't, eh? Then how do you explain its move on Tskhinvali yesterday? Mighty strange behaviour for someone trying to keep the peace.

[xyzer]

Ole! Jose.
Nope I didn't make anything up...

You made that up didn´t you

I got my Sunni Muslim reference from the Columbia Encyclopedia ..

The Ossetians, an Iranian-speaking people, are mainly Sunni Muslims in the north and Eastern Orthodox Christians in the south, where Georgian culture prevails. They are descended from the medieval Alans (see Sarmatia). During the 17th cent. the Northern Ossetians were subject to Karbada princelings. From the 18th cent. they came under strong Russian influence, and between 1801 and 1806 all of Ossetian territory was annexed to Russia.

I did spell it wrong but then I'am somewhat grammatically handicapped.
It seems wherever Islamics show up they start having trouble with any neighbor that adheres to a different faith/culture?

Anyway Georgia is a sovereign country and has a right to make treaties with whatever country it wishes/ This reference applies
EurasiaNet Eurasia Insight - US-Georgian Security Cooperation Agreement Provokes Outcry in Russia

In Tbilisi, President Eduard Shevardnadze’s administration does not conceal its desire to diminish Russia’s influence over Georgia and integrate the country into the Western security framework. Accordingly, Shevardnadze has been one of the staunchest supporters of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. The Russian government, meanwhile, has been a fierce critic of US military action in Iraq. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

[Charlatan]

Now this is a blatant war about oil! Isreal backs Georgia because they can give them cheaper oil, and Russia wants to annex the regions so they will have more resources. If Russia would incorporate this region into it, they would be able to lower their own state price for oil a nd be a richer state, allowing more money for the politicians to play with, making their jobs easier, making their evaluations higher, making it easier for them to stay in power. Nobody does something for the next generation of parliamentaries without having them involved, so, this war is being fought because of the ties they have with other people within their cabinet, who will get to benefit from the increased resources when their time comes to rule. Let's say that the people in power now are the grandfathers and their sons - also cabinet members - will inherit their doings, and seeing as hw nobody likes to go to war for no reason, it is the support the grandfathers get that wish for the 'war'. The present presidents are innocent of wrong doing, it is their supporters that are at fault, because they stand to gain, and would put pressure on their current presidents to go to war over resources. It's not like canned goods they are fighting over, it is something that will take a long time to rebuild, and lies in the land they are fighting for.

So what grip do the other politicians have over the 'visible' ones? Maybe they threaten them with murder, or scandal, if they do not do what they say, which is to provide a better office to step into one day. What else could be the incentive to go to war over land? To have a war is tiring, and not good for the people, so all good intentions have been overuled, the only thing it could be is for the country.

Now what goes into making a good country? When you are sworn in you pledge to do what is best for the country, but this, although criminal, is good for the country, so they are just doing their jobs too. They probably wouldn't have chosen this course, but this is what has been chosen for them to lead in - a war.

When a region breaks away from a country they are saying that they no longer need to be a part of the bigger nation and that they actually think it will be better for residents of the region to settle thier own bills, which is definately the case because otherwise if they saw themselves poorer they would not break away, so this is a selfish act, good for all the citizens of the region, and not good for the rest of the country. Are these people patriots? If they were patriots then they would love their greater nation, but greed overpowers their minds and they do leave one country, maybe to join another, maybe not, but with all this joining and leaving they stand to gain wealth, as they have the resources underneath them.

When someone uses force to try to regain a region, is that good for anybody? Yes it is good for the people trying to regain their region, it is good for the economy, but is it moral? It is like subjugation of another country - is that a good thing in the world of today, to allow this to happen? If you are free to be a part of what you want to be a part of, then they should not be fighting them trying to make them be a part of their country once more, so Georgia is in the wrong - an enemy of freedom.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer Ole! Jose. Nope I didn't make anything up...

This is in South Ossetia, which according to your encyclopedia and Jose's post is the Christian zone. I'd tell you to grow up but you probably already are as grown up as you'll ever get.

Incidentally thirty seconds of research reveals that only 9.9% of the population of Georgia as a whole is Muslim.

Georgia

Charlatan, never mind moral this sort of war isn't efficient. If someone hits that pipeline...Iraq has taught the world that trying to pump oil out of a war-torn region is an exercise in futility. Sadly the Russians don't seem to watch television.

[Century 25]

Quote by: grandpa Honestly, I didn't hear much about the war in 1992. Anyway, this could obviously have global implications. What are your thoughts? Grandpa h.

It is ominous for sure. So many killed already..

The 'new world order' (MIMC) never ceases to amaze me. There is no stopping them. Bush had (at least) 1,000 marines training Georgian troops. It reads a lot like the 'advisers' the CIA had in Vietnam during Eisenhower's term. With 'friends' like that (CIA) - who needs enemies..?

No wonder the Russians wanted Putin.. the 'freedom' the capitalists proffered them (under Reagan's reign) came with many hidden clauses, like maybe becoming our 51st state..:?

[Zeebadee]

As usual, the world press is vilifying Russia for their "aggression". Yet it was clearly Georgia that precipitated the crisis. The Georgians probably miscalculated (misunderestimated??) the Russian response, timing their actions to coincide with the Olympics in the hope that Russia wouldn't want the negative publicity during the games.

[shrike]

Quote by: zeebadee As usual, the world press is vilifying Russia for their "aggression". Yet it was clearly Georgia that precipitated the crisis. The Georgians probably miscalculated (misunderestimated??) the Russian response, timing their actions to coincide with the Olympics in the hope that Russia wouldn't want the negative publicity during the games

The Russians are big hypocrites they did what they like in Chechnya and now they invading foreign country without any aggressive act toward them from Georgia.

[xyzer]

somehow Thanatos I don't think you get it?

This is in South Ossetia, which according to your encyclopedia and Jose's post is the Christian zone

Isn't Georgia a sovereign nation? Doesn't it have an mixed religious population?Is a 6% Muslim element so small that it can't cause any dissension? And don't I have a right to have an opinion about the influence of Islam? It seems that wherever it begins to become a significant part of any population trouble starts...France, England are also examples.Their Islamic populations are small but are still troubesome.

Doesn't a sovereign nation have the right to determine what goes on within its borders(and with what other nation it makes treaties) without Russia intruding with an armed invasion? Does the fact that there may be multiple causes for the armed conflict(and different opinions of the causes) confuse you?

[jose]

And don't I have a right to have an opinion about the influence of Islam?xyzer

There is an obvious Israeli involvement in the present conflict between Georgia and Russia. There are hundreds of Israeli military advisers in Georgia and this is not just the claim of the rather unreliable DebkaFile but also the more respected Ha'aretz expert Yossi Melman, the daily Ma'ariv and also the rather reliable website "News First Class" (NFC). Melman wrote on 25.6.2008 that Georgia became a real El Dorado for Israeli arms dealers and numerous representatives of the army and intelligence services. Some former generals like Israel Zhid and Gal Hirsh (with his company Defensive Shield) are very active there.

Israel and the US behind the Georgian aggression? :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dall'Iraq occupato :: news from occupied Iraq :: - it

[jose]

Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea. Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached. If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

Washington Times - Russian news agencies report sunken Georgian ship