Study: Gays in military don't hurt ability to fight

[xyzer]

Since when did normalcy become an oddity or submissiveness?

Careful, they won't let you into France with that level of extreme submissiveness

I thought our laws and mores were built around normalcy? If we all "fought the system" how would we get anywhere? Please tell us about a job or occupation that favored making ones own rules and policies inspite of those established by the owner? And then there are the jails, filled with dopes who had their own version of societies rights and wrongs.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: xyzer Since when did normalcy become an oddity or submissiveness? I thought our laws and mores were built around normalcy? If we all "fought the system" how would we get anywhere? Please tell us about a job or occupation that favored making ones own rules and policies inspite of those established by the owner? And then there are the jails, filled with dopes who had their own version of societies rights and wrongs.

Citizens are full members of society, participating in public life and elections. This woman was content to be a second-class citizen, living under the thumb of men.

TC

[xyzer]

Citizens are full members of society, participating in public life and elections. This woman was content to be a second-class citizen, living under the thumb of men.

What does this mean? All women are second class citizens? Read the XIVth Amendment of the constituion. Read the voting rights Act of the 1960s.

Women are subject to the same rules and regs in civilian as well as government occupations? I think most of us start out life under the thumb of our feminine mothers don't we? Plus under the thumb of our masculine fathers?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal And here we see the standard libertarian hypocrisy on homosexuality. First they declare that the government must treat gays equally (though they're just fine with people being fired for being gay). Then they define demands for equality as "special rights". Bravo! You would do Ayn Rand proud, as she was virulently homophobic. TC

But homosexuals aren't demanding equality. They're demanding special status as a "minority." They want special treatment by being allowed what heterosexuals in the military aren't allowed.. There can be no equality unless heterosexuals and homosexuals have exactly the same status. Until you're ready to do away with separate sleeping and showering facilities for women, until you're willing to let heterosexuals share sleeping and showering facilities with the sex to which they're attracted, there cannot be equality.

Equality must be equal for all or it's equal for none.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: ThoughtCriminal As it stands, under the idiotic "don't ask don't tell" policy, gay soldiers get to shower with straight ones all the time. Is that a special right? Under the same policies, straight soldiers can admit to their orientation without getting thrown out. Is THAT a special right? And in Europe, where they're not held back by Puritan prudishness, men and women of various sexual orientations walk down the beach naked and nobody cares, so why are you so hung up about communal showers. It's just skin: get over it.

Yes, it is a special right to allow homosexuals to do what heterosexuals are not allowed to do and it is JUST AS WRONG as prohibiting homosexuals to do what heterosexuals can do. So, until heterosexuals are allowed to share sleeping and showering facilities with the sex to which they're attracted, there can be no equality and homosexuals are receiving preferential treatment.

Again, I'm going to skip over the insults and threats. However, I do want to make it quite clear that this forum frowns on disparaging remarks, and I personally frown on slurs. There is no threat involving in informing someone who's violating forum rules that they will be reported if they continue. Let's try to remain civil, even when provoked. TC

Quit your damned whining!

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Jack Here's a thought on this topic that I haven't seen addressed. Perhaps someone who has served more recently than I can say if this is still true. As I mentioned, I enlisted (yup, beat the draft by enlisting...pretty smart, huh?) in the early 70s. I was not openly gay at that time, but I knew pretty well what interested me. Basic training was the only time we all bunked and showered together. I'm willing to bet anyone who has gone through basic will agree with me when I say that I can't remember once thinking about sex in basic. There's no time. Every moment of your day is filled with physical activity that could hardly be considered exciting. When you finally stumble off to bed, you're far too exhausted to want to do anything but sleep. Six hours later you're back at training. After basic you go to school, where the barracks are more dormitory-like. Males and females are barracked on the same floor. Since everyone's an adult (legally), separation was left to the individual. Gay or straight, everyone I knew was discreet and respectful about coupling. Granted, this was an MI unit. Conditions may have been different for my brethren in infantry units.

I was in the navy and spent most of my time on ships. Men and women had separate sleeping and showering facilities. Berthing compartments where people slept consisted of bunks three- or four-high with barely three feet of space between stacks of bunks. It is in those areas of space that dressing takes place. Shower areas have very limited space between shower stalls and it is in those narrow spaces that people dry themselves.

All I'm suggesting, of course, is that the only way there can be equality is if you put male and female together in the same sleeping and showering facilities. That way, not only are the homosexuals in the same sleeping and showering facilities as the sex to which they're attracted but the heterosexuals are as well. Otherwise, you're giving homosexuals special rights that they claim they don't want.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Sonart . Well that's just about as bag'o'hammers dumb as it gets. What do you think gays have been doing all their lives, starting with PE classes in Jr. and Sr. high school? You don't think there's been gays showering next to you at the gym? Since when is being treated as an equal in ones own society considered a "Special Right"? .

Only a damned idiot would think that being allowed to do what someone else is not allowed to do is EQUAL.

It's a special right exactly because heterosexuals are not allowed to share sleeping and showering facilities with the sex to which they're attracted. So, the only way to solve this so that there is equality is to do away with separating the sexes with regard to sleeping and showering facilities.

[GHook93]

Only if you have been a bad and naught enemy!

LOL, the don't ask don't tell is one of the worst policies the US armed forces still have.

[ShadowFox]

Ok, no personal comments.

[Matt W]

Halo, report issues and let staff handle it, please. Thanks.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Chancellor Only a damned idiot would think that being allowed to do what someone else is not allowed to do is EQUAL. It's a special right exactly because heterosexuals are not allowed to share sleeping and showering facilities with the sex to which they're attracted. So, the only way to solve this so that there is equality is to do away with separating the sexes with regard to sleeping and showering facilities.

Only an idiot thinks gays are that randy that they're getting some sort of special treatment being able to check out the boys in the shower, which half the heteros are probably doing after they're 6month at sea anyway.

Maybe we should just make a third homo deck on the ship hey? That'll even it up

[Brian]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary No one said they aren't, the issue is overall unit perception. Imagine living out in the field behind enemy lines in an all male environment except for one or two women, you can see where that'd get uncomfortable.

Imagine the personal feelings a man would feel when he sees the enemy shooting at a woman. Men have this natural tendency to protect women and they may even try so hard as to put other men in danger and not do their designated jobs well.

[Brian]

Quote by: Halofan48 Study: Gays in military don't hurt ability to fight - CNN.com Thoughts?

It could be linked with the woman case.. if a straight men or even other gay men see gay people getting shot that will trigger a bunch of side alarms and people will not perform their jobs well because they may not realize that those people can handle themselves. The lack of trust is a perception but also a natural tendency to protect women and feminine men.

[ThoughtCriminal]

Quote by: Chancellor But homosexuals aren't demanding equality. They're demanding special status as a "minority." They want special treatment by being allowed what heterosexuals in the military aren't allowed.. There can be no equality unless heterosexuals and homosexuals have exactly the same status. Until you're ready to do away with separate sleeping and showering facilities for women, until you're willing to let heterosexuals share sleeping and showering facilities with the sex to which they're attracted, there cannot be equality. Equality must be equal for all or it's equal for none.

They are a minority, in that they constitute perhaps 5% of the population. And they currently receive unequal treatment, in that they're not allowed to marry. They also want to be able to serve in the military without hiding their sexual orientation, just as straight people can. They want to be able to get a job, rent an apartment and otherwise be a normal part of society without being discriminated against. In short, they're demanding equality.

TC

[ShadowFox]

Quote by: Brian It could be linked with the woman case.. if a straight men or even other gay men see gay people getting shot that will trigger a bunch of side alarms and people will not perform their jobs well because they may not realize that those people can handle themselves. The lack of trust is a perception but also a natural tendency to protect women and feminine men.

Funny, because according to the article, this is unlikely. I think if your getting shot at, your more likely to be concerned about yourself then others. Also, doesn't our military train soldiers to look out for each other anyways? No matter what gender or orientation? Plus, i think if you see anyone of your squad mates getting shot at, and your not too, your going to try and help. Plus, not all gay men are feminine. Who knows, some may be among the toughest guys there. Are you assuming that having female and gay soldiers hurts our military when theres evidence to the contrary?

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Chancellor Yes. That's why the military has separate sleeping and showering facilities for women.

This is one of the most significant factors that needs to be solved.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer Since when did normalcy become an oddity or submissiveness? I thought our laws and mores were built around normalcy? If we all "fought the system" how would we get anywhere? Please tell us about a job or occupation that favored making ones own rules and policies inspite of those established by the owner? And then there are the jails, filled with dopes who had their own version of societies rights and wrongs.

Is not submissiveness to social norms what your philosophy demands?

I think you intentionally constructed an indirect attack on collectivist thought. Anybody who "agrees" with your position is automatically trapped into believing that it is okay to, say, stone people for adultery if it is normal in that society.

Congratulations. Your debating skills have leveled up.

Personally I believe in the existence of a right way of doing things that is independent of human thought. How do you make a whole society of people happy? People have to treat other people fairly and respect the rights of others. As long as you are not harming the group you can do pretty much whatever you want, whether that's wearing a burqua or dressing in sheet metal panties. Weird is not a crime. Stoning someone when it does not help anything is a crime.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Chancellor Only a damned idiot would think that being allowed to do what someone else is not allowed to do is EQUAL.

Quote by: Rainbow This is one of the most significant factors that needs to be solved.

What, are you still nagging on this women don't shower and bunk with men bugaboo. Ask any gay veteran... ask servicemen that have served with gays... it's not an issue. Gays have been trained since their teens how to live among heterosexuals... in gym classes, in dorms. It's not like they're going to join the military and suddenly explode in a frenzy of homo lust at the sight of naked soldiers. That's simply idiotic. No one risks their lives joining a military because they think it's a neat chance to shower with other men.

Not only have gays been serving honorably for years, they've served EVEN MORE during times of military conflict. Whenever America has needed soldiers, restrictions against gays have declined, with no resulting loss of unit cohesion.

I'm sorry, but only "a damned idiot" would think this makes the slightest bit of sense whatsoever. What are gays being asked to do that others can't. To the contrary, they're asking to be treated the same, not "special".

Jeez, get over your phobias.

Quote by: brian It could be linked with the woman case.. if a straight men or even other gay men see gay people getting shot that will trigger a bunch of side alarms and people will not perform their jobs well because they may not realize that those people can handle themselves.

All evidence to the contrary.

Once again, you're acting as if this is all hypothetical. Gays already serve, and even more so in times of war. Your silly theory just isn't so.

Besides, troops who share combat are probably emotionally as bonded as gays, just without the sex. That's why they call themselves a 'Band of Brothers'.

Quote by: brian The lack of trust is a perception but also a natural tendency to protect women and feminine men.

Feminine men? You're not stereotyping, are you? Does anyone who qualifies for Navy Seals or Green Berets sound feminine to you?

Books of The Times; Gay Life in the Military: A Record of Success -- "Today, gay soldiers jump with the 101st Airborne, wear the Green Beret of the Special Forces and perform top-level jobs in the 'black world' of covert operations. Gay Air Force personnel have staffed missile silos in North Dakota, flown the nuclear-armed bombers of the Strategic Air Command and navigated Air Force One. Gay sailors dive with the Navy Seals, tend the nuclear reactors on submarines and teach at the Naval War College. A gay admiral commanded the fleet assigned to one of the highest-profile military operations of the past generation. The homosexual presence on aircraft carriers is so pervasive that social life on the huge ships for the past 15 years has included gay newsletters and clandestine gay discos. Gay Marines guard the President in the White House honor guard and protect U.S. embassies around the world."

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Sonart What, are you still nagging on this women don't shower and bunk with men bugaboo. Ask any gay veteran... ask servicemen that have served with gays... it's not an issue. Gays have been trained since their teens how to live among heterosexuals... in gym classes, in dorms. It's not like they're going to join the military and suddenly explode in a frenzy of homo lust at the sight of naked soldiers. That's simply idiotic. No one risks their lives joining a military because they think it's a neat chance to shower with other men. Not only have gays been serving honorably for years, they've served EVEN MORE during times of military conflict. Whenever America has needed soldiers, restrictions against gays have declined, with no resulting loss of unit cohesion. I'm sorry, but only "a damned idiot" would think this makes the slightest bit of sense whatsoever. What are gays being asked to do that others can't. To the contrary, they're asking to be treated the same, not "special". Jeez, get over your phobias.

(Excusively for Sonart.)

A = gender : man
B = gender : woman

A1 = gender : man-gay
B1 = gender : woman-lesbian

A2 = gender : man-gay : "he"
A3 = gender : man-gay : "she"

B2 = gender : woman-lesbian : "he"
B3 = gender : woman-lesbian : "she"

Actual conditions and/or regulations:
- sleeping facilities
- A and B can Not occupy the same room.

Conditions and/or regulations - made by Sonart :
- sleeping facilities
- A2 and A3 can occupy the same room
- B2 and B3 can occupy the same room

That is why I underlined some modifications to be implemented and/or required.

Who is that "damned idiot" - troubled by phobias, are you talking about, Sonart ?

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: damned idiot Who is that "damned idiot" - troubled by phobias, are you talking about, Sonart ?

Nice mathematical formula, Rainbow. Of course, mathematical formulas say that bumblebees can't fly, but of course, the reality is that they fly quite well, thank you very much.

Likewise, your nifty little formula says gays and straights can't function together in the military without dibilitating sexual tension, yet the reality is that do and have for generations, thank you very much... and even more so during times of war.

In case you missed the point, As and A1s, and Bs and B1s occupying the same quarters is not a problem because they've been doing it for all their lives. It's like how a doctor can examine a beautiful woman without getting all hot, or how art students can sit and draw nude models without foaming at the mouth. You get used to it, so it no longer fits your little mathematical fantasy.

Don't you get it? You're creating a fantasy - BASED ON YOUR PHOBIAS - that's contradicted by a reality that already exists. We're no longer talking about the theoretical concept of gays in the military... they ARE in the military, and functioning just fine, thanks.

As my sources attest!

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