Austrian 'hid daughter in cellar'

[Anmon]

Shooting him dead like he deserves, is not going down to his level.
Torturing and raping kids for years in secret would be.
Can you see the difference?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon Shooting him dead like he deserves, is not going down to his level. Torturing and raping kids for years in secret would be.

The argument was one of moral equivalency. Moral equivalency doesn't mean doing the exact same immoral act.
For example, if I decided to shoot a 15 year old dead, one might compare it to what this man did. It might not be the greatest comparison, but the point is we would both be disreputable people. If everyone interpreted moral standards in the most exact, literal sense possible, basic understandings of morality would have long ago crashed beyond repair. People everywhere might then contribute eagerly to a fascist bureaucracy, simply because they aren't the ones literally doing the political persecution, writing the policies, etc. However, if we grasp the basic concept of general morality, we can question the small contributions we make to a given situation. Of course, killing someone is not a small act, and this makes general moral considerations all the more practical.

Grandpa h.

[Anmon]

I disagree, keeping a monster like this alive is a greater moral threat to society.
'Look we care for the monster, even though he tortured and raped kids right under our noses for twenty five years, we love him so much we'll keep him comfy for the rest of his life at taxpayers expense, just so people wont say we stooped in some way to his level.'
Shooting a fifteen year old dead, you give no reason as to why this 15 year old was shot, it could have been self defence.

Yes, lets keep the monster alive, so shrinks can cream their pants over the possibilty of interviewing and writing a study on him some day.
Screw that, just shoot the bastard and throw his corpse on a rubbish dump where it belongs.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon I disagree, keeping a monster like this alive is a greater moral threat to society. 'Look we care for the monster, even though he tortured and raped kids right under our noses for twenty five years, we love him so much we'll keep him comfy for the rest of his life at taxpayers expense, just so people wont say we stooped in some way to his level.'

I didn't say you have to love this person, nor did I claim he posed no threat to anybody. But if we truly are morally upright people, we'll consider what kind of message shooting people sends. Is it only a positive message? Certainly not. That's my basic point. Torturing or killing this man isn't going to set society right. If people abided by straight standards of revenge (like you're advocating), retaliatory violence would be endless, encompassing all. If you look at the micro-scale, you can find examples like this. On the macro-scale you can see examples such as Vietnam under French
colonial rule.

As we said just before, killing someone is not a small act, and this makes general moral considerations all the more practical. And it may be practical to keep such people alive anyway, indeed to study why they behave a certain way. This might be done "at taxpayers' expense" only because we have taxes.

Grandpa h.

[Anmon]

=grandpa;503519]I But if we truly are morally upright people, we'll consider what kind of message shooting people sends. Is it only a positive message? Certainly not. That's my basic point.

The message is we will not tolerate scum like this, living with us in our society.
Why would you care if they died?

Torturing or killing this man isn't going to set society right.

Shooting someone isn't torturing them, and the guy would probably be even grateful to be put out of his sick mind.

If people abided by straight standards of revenge (like you're advocating), retaliatory violence would be endless, encompassing all. If you look at the micro-scale, you can find examples like this. On the macro-scale you can see examples such as Vietnam under French colonial rule.

I'm not advocating vigilantism, I'm advocating capital punishment for people like this
If the state doesn't carry it out, then the people might have to.

And it may be practical to keep such people alive anyway, indeed to study why they behave a certain way.

who cares why they do it, their sick evil and twisted thats why.
All your study has already found this out anyway, and its not going to stop it from happening.
This guy kept this up for twenty five years, because he kept up a normal appearance, did his work etc wasn't a nuisance.
There was another case of this a few months ago in the same country.

[Nono]

Quote by: GHook Why find a humane way to deal with a monster?

Too easy, Hook. Unfortunately, he's a human being, no getting around it.

Notice that this is the second such case in recent times in Austria, a country that has never really come to terms with its string-em-up past.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono Too easy, Hook. Unfortunately, he's a human being, no getting around it.

It part of the human race, but so is his daughter. She is the one I care about. He on the other hand I could careless about. Was the left always try to give a person mercy when they don't deserve it.

[Nono]

You're sounding a bit confused, G. First you say that shooting is too good for him and he should be tortured for 24 years, then shot.
Now you say that you couldn't care less.

Obviously his daughter and the kids should be the sole object of our concern. But if you had any sense you'd appreciate the need to understand why these things happen.

But not you. You just say "Oh well they're monsters -- off with their heads." Which is reminiscent of .... yes, you guessed it.

Yes, anything but pure vengefulness is just too complicated for you, Hook. You simply don't have the patience for it.
But take it from lil ol' bleeding-heart-liberal Nono that it has nothing to do with mercy and everything to do with causality.

[tommy5x]

Quote by: Anmon The message is we will not tolerate scum like this, living with us in our society. Why would you care if they died?

But the message that would be inferred by fools and jingoists, is that it's acceptable to kill somebody whose moral conflit with your own.

Quote by: Anmon Shooting someone isn't torturing them, and the guy would probably be even grateful to be put out of his sick mind.

But you don't know that, and therefore, you can't pass judgement. Surely, by your logic, if he wanted death, it would be better to keep him alive.

Quote by: Anmon I'm not advocating vigilantism, I'm advocating capital punishment for people like this If the state doesn't carry it out, then the people might have to.

"I'm not advocting vigilantism, unless the state don't carry out the governmential equivalent."

Quote by: Anmon who cares why they do it, their sick evil and twisted thats why. All your study has already found this out anyway, and its not going to stop it from happening. This guy kept this up for twenty five years, because he kept up a normal appearance, did his work etc wasn't a nuisance. There was another case of this a few months ago in the same country.

Perhaps he kept up a normal appearence, because he truly believed he was normal.

Your entire argument is based upon moral relativism, and not social morals.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono You're sounding a bit confused, G. First you say that shooting is too good for him and he should be tortured for 24 years, then shot. Now you say that you couldn't care less.

Couldn't care less about, meaning I don't care how inhumane they treat him. I could careless if they beat every night with a wet noodle. It won't phase me either way.

Obviously his daughter and the kids should be the sole object of our concern. But if you had any sense you'd appreciate the need to understand why these things happen.

Wow we agree on something

But not you. You just say "Oh well they're monsters -- off with their heads." Which is reminiscent of .... yes, you guessed it.

Distorted connection. There is a lot of evidence on this man!

Yes, anything but pure vengefulness is just too complicated for you, Hook. You simply don't have the patience for it. But take it from lil ol' bleeding-heart-liberal Nono that it has nothing to do with mercy and everything to do with causality.

I guess you have too much mercy. I have had a lot less patience and mercy for child molesters and rapist since I had a daughter. All of them are bad, but this one is truly horrific. I couldn't believe someone could do this to their own child. I wish nothing but pain and suffering for the rest of his life.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Anmon The message is we will not tolerate scum like this, living with us in our society. Why would you care if they died?

Because I'm not "scum...living with us in our society," that's why. I agree this guy did terrible things and I'm not even glad he exists, but I'm not going to argue that I should kill him, or that our society should kill him. Quite simply, I lack faith in the idea of revenge, at least intellectually. I realize that killing him will not set society right. It simply won't. Killing people ultimately doesn't solve problems. It hides them, and worse.

Of course, this is my position in argument. If I happened to actually get attacked by someone, I might sink to a lower level. Howvere, as the saying goes, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it.

Grandpa h.

[Nono]

Quote by: GHook I couldn't believe someone could do this to their own child.

Then you've got a lot to learn.

I wish nothing but pain and suffering for the rest of his life.

Sure, that's your usual position on just about everybody you don't like.
And it's just that sort of old-testament vengefulness that will encourage this kind of shit from happening over and over.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono Then you've got a lot to learn.

Maybe believe is the wrong word. I can't understand how someone could do this.

Sure, that's your usual position on just about everybody you don't like. And it's just that sort of old-testament vengefulness that will encourage this kind of shit from happening over and over.

That's slander!

[Nono]

If it's slander, cite a single instance where your response to something you think is wrong was more subtle than put-em-up-against-a-wall.
Do so and I'll be happy to moderate my view.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Just chuck him in a nice, soft room, feed him through a slot, and be done with it.

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: grandpa Because I'm not "scum...living with us in our society," that's why. I agree this guy did terrible things and I'm not even glad he exists, but I'm not going to argue that I should kill him, or that our society should kill him. Quite simply, I lack faith in the idea of revenge, at least intellectually. I realize that killing him will not set society right. It simply won't. Killing people ultimately doesn't solve problems. It hides them, and worse. Of course, this is my position in argument. If I happened to actually get attacked by someone, I might sink to a lower level. Howvere, as the saying goes, I'll cross that bridge if I get to it. Grandpa h.

In addition.... I am not a psychologist, BUT... I have to wonder, given the circumstances, what sort of awful effect the execution of this guy would have on his daughter and their joint children. Given the weird human brain, and given that she and they have not exactly grown up in "normal" circumstances, I would think there would be some self-recriminations going on which would hamper their efforts to achieve whatever shred of decency and normalcy they can.

[Anmon]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 In addition.... I am not a psychologist, BUT... I have to wonder, given the circumstances, what sort of awful effect the execution of this guy would have on his daughter and their joint children. Given the weird human brain, and given that she and they have not exactly grown up in "normal" circumstances, I would think there would be some self-recriminations going on which would hamper their efforts to achieve whatever shred of decency and normalcy they can.

hahahahaha I'm sure they will miss him

[Anmon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Just chuck him in a nice, soft room, feed him through a slot, and be done with it.

costs money

bullet

tie body to lead weight

dump 20km off coast

[BorisTheFerret]

Josef Fritzl is quite a sick man. I'd probably rate him an 8 out of 10, in terms of sickness.

[Anmon]

lol Id hate to ever meet what you would give a ten.
Personally I give him a 9.4