DNA Test in store for Polygamy Kids

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kakumei What about the rights of the young girls who are forced into a false marriage by men 4x their age? They are in a society that has pulled them from reality and forced to believe that marriage of the type of marriage is acceptable, when it really isnt.

So they are kept in social pens and the state is to liberate them, am I correct? Look, if there is a cult that I would not join, I'll address it as such. But I'm not going to break up the cult -- in this case, families -- by violent means. Unless it is profoundly endangering my neighborhood, I have precious little right to get involved.

I say this for a variety of reasons, including personal ones. While I'm not a polygamist, I actually did date a 21 year old when I was 16. Legally and otherwise, some would consider that to have been utterly deplorable. However, I thought it was okay while it lasted. The point is: Unless this would have posed a severe risk to people, I fail to see why it should have been "regulated."

Grandpa h.

[Osborn F Enready]

Kakumei said: What about the rights of the young girls who are forced into a false marriage by men 4x their age? They are in a society that has pulled them from reality and forced to believe that marriage of the type of marriage is acceptable, when it really isnt.

If there is a crime, and evidence to show it, let those people who they have evidence against stand trial.

I am against the state SEPERATING PARENTS AND CHILDREN with a lack of evidence.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: grandpa So they are kept in social pens and the state is to liberate them, am I correct? Look, if there is a cult that I would not join, I'll address it as such. But I'm not going to break up the cult -- in this case, families -- by violent means. Unless it is profoundly endangering my neighborhood, I have precious little right to get involved. I say this for a variety of reasons, including personal ones. While I'm not a polygamist, I actually did date a 21 year old when I was 16. Legally and otherwise, some would consider that to have been utterly deplorable. However, I thought it was okay while it lasted. The point is: Unless this would have posed a severe risk to people, I fail to see why it should have been "regulated." Grandpa h.

There is still a diffrence between the small age span between you and your ex-girlfriend and a much bigger one between a 14 yr old girl and 50 year old man.

And you tell me this is okay right? Id like a straight yes or no answer:

SAN ANTONIO - More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready If there is a crime, and evidence to show it, let those people who they have evidence against stand trial. I am against the state SEPERATING PARENTS AND CHILDREN with a lack of evidence.

And this isnt evidence?

SAN ANTONIO - More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.


Im usually against using the same quote twice, however this truth slaps me in the face like a dueling glove, im supprised nobody else feels the same on here. Heh, what happened to good ol Chivalry?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kakumei And this isnt evidence? SAN ANTONIO - More than half the teen girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.

That doesn't mean they were "forced" to have children. Look, I object to Lutheran attitudes of treating women like baby-makers, and their typical practice of marrying within the religion -- but I'm not about to charge in with guns and DNA tests.

So, regarding your question to me, a "yes" or "no" answer simply won't do. If a 15 year-old-girl actually likes a 45-year old, then I have no great problem with it. However, if there is violence between them that affects my life or my community in a significant way, then I will take it into consideration. But I'd have to cross that bridge if I got to it.

Grandpa h.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: loser Exactly what does "underage girls" mean? Are you implying that 14 or 15 years of age is too young for marriage? It's the laws that are bogus (especially Texas laws). There's little difference between the Texas 'militia' and Hitler's SS.

Nice... reducto ad hitlerium (Godwin's Law) and we're only 5 posts in.

And yes, people are implying that 14 or 15 is too young for marriage. Do you disagree?

Remember Waco? Same zealots, same war crime atrocities against helpless children. It makes my blood boil to see evil people step in and destroy happy and functional families.

LOL... The Davidian Branch was happy and functional? These people were happy and functional? You have a very strange view of those terms.

Maybe my views and your views do not align with these polygamists and separatists but that doesn't matter. Our country is founded on the principle of individual freedoms. The oppressive regime that we call our government once fought for freedom; now, it fights against it.

Freedom to abuse children? Is that what our forefathers fought and died for?

If we can allow Satanists to practice their rituals, homosexuals to flaunt their perversions, promote adultery and prostitution by allowing nude dancers to accept money insertions, and a plethora of other less-than-optimum behaviors and actions that 'indoctrinate' our children, I don't see why we can't allow polygamy and 'child' marriage. It's not like it's unique or unheard of in the world. In fact, it is a quiet common practice all over the world.

So many fallacies packed into one paragraph I don't know where to begin.

Slippery slope fallacy.
"Off a bridge" fallacy.
Reducto ad absurdium fallacy.
Strawman fallacy.

But even if we can't allow polygamy and child marriages, it is a travesty of justice to take these children from their mothers (where the likelihood of abuse is virtually non-existent) and put them into foster homes where abuse is almost certainly guaranteed.

Show me evidence that an overwhelming majority or even a significant plurality of foster parents are abusers. Your statement is a blatant, unsourced, ridiculous indictment of millions of loving foster parents.

Quote by: HelioPrime The whole reason I brought this subject up was sort of a test. If this group was just some Anti American government commune living out in the desert, who were invaded on false information people on this site would be howling. Yet I suspect because its a religious group those same parties don't care as much.

If this was a sect of child-abusing tax protesters this thread would be 75 pages by now.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I think this is blatant abuse by the state, of individual rights and due process, regardless of the "reason" the group seperated themselves from society.

Ah... So an individual has a right to violate age of consent laws if it is for religious reasons? I think NAMBLA just found their loophole...

[Kakumei]

Quote by: grandpa That doesn't mean they were "forced" to have children. Look, I object to Lutheran attitudes of treating women like baby-makers, and their typical practice of marrying within the religion -- but I'm not about to charge in with guns and DNA tests. So, regarding your question to me, a "yes" or "no" answer simply won't do. If a 15 year-old-girl actually likes a 45-year old, then I have no great problem with it. However, if there is violence between them that affects my life or my community in a significant way, then I will take it into consideration. But I'd have to cross that bridge if I got to it. Grandpa h.

Yes, lets ignore the laws on which this country is predicated shall we?
Honestly, Go to the MSNBC news and read some of the journals that have been posted. Its sick and discusting what they would have children... yes CHILDREN, be married to 50 year old men who have a problem with sexual abuse. Remember, this is just like the Couey case, the diffrence is there are many more illegal sexual activities going on and not known murders yet. Mala in Se, my friend, Mala in Se.... (lol, hope i spelled that right, I need to brush up on my latin.)

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kakumei Yes, lets ignore the laws on which this country is predicated shall we? Honestly, Go to the MSNBC news and read some of the journals that have been posted.

Which laws are you referring to? It's not that the existence of laws will affect me either way, I'm just asking for the sake of accuracy.

Grandpa h.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: grandpa Which laws are you referring to? It's not that the existence of laws will affect me either way, I'm just asking for the sake of accuracy. Grandpa h.

I assume she was referring to the laws about statutory rape. "Loving family" does not describe half of the story.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Thanatos I assume she was referring to the laws about statutory rape. "Loving family" does not describe half of the story.

Well, I'd first point out that sex is not necessarily rape. This isn't to say
rape and sex are never connected (obviously), but let's not pretend they are entirely identical.
From what I understand, at least some of these anti-Mormon stories have been fabrications.

Grandpa h.

[Sandy]

It is part of the Mormon faith to have the girls start breeding right after puberty. Mormons marry in heaven and simply go through the motions here on earth. They live in a world of heaven and their orders from the prophet are to breed! Read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and learn about their actions on earth that respect no laws.

I come from generations of Mormons and was taken to be baptized in SLC and asked if I was ready to dedicate my entire life to the church? I said "NO!" and had to leave the temple and never return. I was 9 years old. On my Grandmother's death I was given a copy of "The Autobiography of Parley Parker Pratt" Once a wife was named in his book/life, it was never mentioned again. He lived a life of one night stands claiming he married all his wives spiritually. He was also shot when he wandered into the bed of another man's wife. That of course is not mentioned in his book.

If any of you have followed the court actions of many American fathers who spent years raping their daughters, you would see that they are released back in the homes by the courts to keep the wives and children off welfare.

American morals are not good and I blame it on the fact that our people never learned right from wrong. We are taught instead to sin and ask for forgiveness.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Sandy It is part of the Mormon faith to have the girls start breeding right after puberty. Mormons marry in heaven and simply go through the motions here on earth. They live in a world of heaven and their orders from the prophet are to breed! Read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and learn about their actions on earth that respect no laws. I come from generations of Mormons and was taken to be baptized in SLC and asked if I was ready to dedicate my entire life to the church? I said "NO!" and had to leave the temple and never return. I was 9 years old. On my Grandmother's death I was given a copy of "The Autobiography of Parley Parker Pratt" Once a wife was named in his book/life, it was never mentioned again. He lived a life of one night stands claiming he married all his wives spiritually. He was also shot when he wandered into the bed of another man's wife. That of course is not mentioned in his book. If any of you have followed the court actions of many American fathers who spent years raping their daughters, you would see that they are released back in the homes by the courts to keep the wives and children off welfare. American morals are not good and I blame it on the fact that our people never learned right from wrong. We are taught instead to sin and ask for forgiveness.

Very few 9 year olds can walk out of that sort of thing.

The polygamy never bothered me really. If you want two wives and can take care of them, that's fine.

Even the mild pedophilia does not bother me that deeply. 16 is an arbitrary division; some people are completely mentally and physically mature at 14 and some are never really ready. The law is less flexible, but read my signature.

What bothered me was hearing how some branches of Mormonism encourage women to put up with this. They deprive them of education and discourage them from thinking for themselves. The man's word is law and they're basically cattle.

Are those creepy news clips of Mormon women trying to remember what their husbands told them to say to the camera spot on or not?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Thanatos Very few 9 year olds can walk out of that sort of thing. The polygamy never bothered me really.

The thing is, I really don't like Mormonism. However, if we start sicking the dogs after a sect, chaos will likely ensue. Approaching the issue individually would make more sense to me. If any Mormon practices threaten me or the community I live in, then I'd weigh the options more.

Grandpa h.

[Osborn F Enready]

Tivo said: Ah... So an individual has a right to violate age of consent laws if it is for religious reasons? I think NAMBLA just found their loophole...

WHere did I say that you non-reading imbecile.....

Oh, I didn't, you just made it up....

Now I remember one of the main reasons I left this forum..... thanks for reminding me.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready WHere did I say that you non-reading imbecile..... Oh, I didn't, you just made it up.... Now I remember one of the main reasons I left this forum..... thanks for reminding me.

I'd apologize, Tivo. I read back up hoping for a chance to insult Osborn's stupidity in the hopes he had actually said what you claimed, and sadly I cannot for it is not an accurate rendition.

[Osborn F Enready]

Thank you for actually taking the time to read my posts and second that affirmation Thanatos.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: grandpa The thing is, I really don't like Mormonism. However, if we start sicking the dogs after a sect, chaos will likely ensue. Approaching the issue individually would make more sense to me. If any Mormon practices threaten me or the community I live in, then I'd weigh the options more. Grandpa h.

Alright, lets get this straight before I get irritated here! These are not the real 'mormons' here, they are a cult-like religion that broke off the main religion just so they could sexually abuse children, and broke off because the real sect denounces polygamy and sexual abuse and not glory in it!!!

[Kakumei]

Quote by: Thanatos I assume she was referring to the laws about statutory rape. "Loving family" does not describe half of the story.

She...? I know im feminine, but im still a boy who likes girls
Lol, dont apologize tho, I already know its a mistake. ^_^

[grandpa]

Quote by: Kakumei Alright, lets get this straight before I get irritated here! These are not the real 'mormons' here, they are a cult-like religion that broke off the main religion just so they could sexually abuse children, and broke off because the real sect denounces polygamy and sexual abuse and not glory in it!!!

I'm sorry if I irritated you, but you failed to address any of my points, especially the greater issues.

My simple argument is just that: Unless people have violated me personally, or greatly endanger my community, I'll be very hesitant to use force against them. There are all kinds of "cult-like religions" that do all manners of things I disagree with. Do I advocate going in and breaking them up? No. Another example is families who raise children to join the military. I object to this common practice on very strong grounds, but still I'm not going to invade a "military family" and re-educate them. Whether these people need my assistance (if, for example, someone wants to escape a despotic Mormom marriage and desperately seeks my help -- an unlikely situation, to be sure) remains entirely up to them.

Views like yours don't make a lot of sense. If these people are actually engaging in some "traditional Mormon values" (which I suppose they are), then why not just call them orthodox Mormons?

Grandpa h.

[Kakumei]

Quote by: grandpa I'm sorry if I irritated you, but you failed to address any of my points, especially the greater issues. My simple argument is just that: Unless people have violated me personally, or greatly endanger my community, I'll be very hesitant to use force against them. There are all kinds of "cult-like religions" that do all manners of things I disagree with. Do I advocate going in and breaking them up? No. Another example is families who raise children to join the military. I object to this common practice on very strong grounds, but still I'm not going to invade a "military family" and re-educate them. Whether these people need my assistance (if, for example, someone wants to escape a despotic Mormom marriage and desperately seeks my help -- an unlikely situation, to be sure) remains entirely up to them. Views like yours don't make a lot of sense. If these people are actually engaging in some "traditional Mormon values" (which I suppose they are), then why not just call them orthodox Mormons? Grandpa h.

Actually they arent being traditional at all, although they think they are, and thats why they go by "Fundamentalist" Latter Day Saints. Lol, there are no real fundimentals to our religion.