Justices agree on right to own guns

[Gods_Mercenary]

And yet somehow there are dozens of wealthy, peaceful, democratic nations around the globe that practice strict gun control, whose citizens are not armed to the teeth, and yet manage to survive with far fewer murders per capita than do Americans. Vast populations of psychotics in those countries, do you suppose???

Perhaps, but that's not the point. Demographically, the U.S. would probably have more murders anyway, we're not exactly a Denmark or a Switzerland in terms of the people who inhabit the country. Hell, we're not even a France. The argument for having a gun in your home is not found in the "larger" picture, which is blury at best, considering no two nations are alike, but when the burly robber has kicked in your door and is threatening your life. In that case, I'd prefer even the chance of properly defending myself to the fate that awaits me in the however long it takes for police to respond. In this case, I find it unlikely that you'd find comfort in that you'd have been less likely to be murdered in a country without guns if you had lived.

[Chris the Chees]

Hell, we're not even a France.

Indeed, the US is more comparable to Britain, with its high violent crime rates. yet murder rates here are miniscule compared to those of the US.

Go figure.

[BorisTheFerret]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary A gun is just as efficient a tool of defense as offense, and if you do not take reasonable steps to defend your body and your family yourself, I say you are the psychotic. There are in fact people who desire your possessions or even your life, and, yes, if necessary, I want to be able to shoot them.

Oh my god, you're so paranoid! And you call ME a psychotic?!? I'm just a ferret, you actually seem to believe there's a cabal of malevolents personally gunning for your blood!

The fact is that if America wasn't chock-full of guns, the murder rate would be far, FAR lower. You cannot dispute this.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Gods_Mercenary In that case, I'd prefer even the chance of properly defending myself to the fate that awaits me in the however long it takes for police to respond. In this case, I find it unlikely that you'd find comfort in that you'd have been less likely to be murdered in a country without guns if you had lived.

Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds?

You'd much prefer to have a gun to defend yourself against other people with guns, in a country in which you're considerably more likely to be murdered specifically because it has so many guns, than not to have a gun to defend yourself in a country where you're far less likely to be murdered by people with guns because there's far fewer guns.

That's like saying you'd rather have an SUV, even though it increases you're chances of dying in an accident, because you'd stand a better chance if you hit a small car, in which you'd actually have less of a chance of dying in an accident.

Or like saying that you won't wear seat belts because they make it harder to get out of a burning car, even though wearing them vastly increases your chances of surviving in the first place.

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[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: BorisTheFerret Oh my god, you're so paranoid! And you call ME a psychotic?!? I'm just a ferret, you actually seem to believe there's a cabal of malevolents personally gunning for your blood! The fact is that if America wasn't chock-full of guns, the murder rate would be far, FAR lower. You cannot dispute this.

I wouldn't say a cabal, but you apparently live in a dreamland if you don't think there are people who wish harm on you. Until you actually remove all guns from america, that point is completely up for grabs, since it is total speculation.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Sonart . Do you have any idea how idiotic that sounds? You'd much prefer to have a gun to defend yourself against other people with guns, in a country in which you're considerably more likely to be murdered specifically because it has so many guns, than not to have a gun to defend yourself in a country where you're far less likely to be murdered by people with guns because there's far fewer guns. That's like saying you'd rather have an SUV, even though it increases you're chances of dying in an accident, because you'd stand a better chance if you hit a small car, in which you'd actually have less of a chance of dying in an accident. Or like saying that you won't wear seat belts because they make it harder to get out of a burning car, even though wearing them vastly increases your chances of surviving in the first place. .

What the hells to stop a criminal from getting a gun? Any one who wants a gun just has to take a jont down to mexico and sneak an arsenal up. Your logic is flawed, because unless we shrink our borders, force our neighbors to ban guns, and pat down every warm body that passes over the border, all a ban of guns will do is put guns underground, in the hands of only those who intend to break the law. A gun is a desirable material good, and I am pressed to think of a ban of such an object that did anything but strengthen the criminal element and lead to more abuses in America.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary What the hells to stop a criminal from getting a gun? Any one who wants a gun just has to take a jont down to mexico and sneak an arsenal up. Your logic is flawed, because unless we shrink our borders, force our neighbors to ban guns, and pat down every warm body that passes over the border, all a ban of guns will do is put guns underground, in the hands of only those who intend to break the law. A gun is a desirable material good, and I am pressed to think of a ban of such an object that did anything but strengthen the criminal element and lead to more abuses in America.

Well is hasn't in Australia (and we have massive borders with Customs being about a drop in the ocean compared to US Customs.)

PS, its sad to think that your country is in it's current state because of attitudes like yours. The rest of the world is looking on in disbelief.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Aussie Well is hasn't in Australia (and we have massive borders with Customs being about a drop in the ocean compared to US Customs.) PS, its sad to think that your country is in it's current state because of attitudes like yours. The rest of the world is looking on in disbelief.

Why is it so important to the rest of the world that we disarm?

[Aussie]

Because you're coming across as a gun toting war mongering state. That tends to attract heat. That and as a human being its disgraceful how many are killed per year because of gun attitudes there. It doesn't matter what's pointed out to you, you just dont wanna let go of that gun. And it's killing people. Just because you haven't pulled the trigger, doesnt make you any less involved.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Aussie Because you're coming across as a gun toting war mongering state. That tends to attract heat. That and as a human being its disgraceful how many are killed per year because of gun attitudes there. It doesn't matter what's pointed out to you, you just dont wanna let go of that gun. And it's killing people. Just because you haven't pulled the trigger, doesnt make you any less involved.

Oh, so it's just bleeding heart Liberalism.


Message recieved.

[Aussie]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Oh, so it's just bleeding heart Liberalism. Message recieved.

No, just pure common sense. It's not a hard equation.

[BorisTheFerret]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I wouldn't say a cabal, but you apparently live in a dreamland if you don't think there are people who wish harm on you. Until you actually remove all guns from america, that point is completely up for grabs, since it is total speculation.

Well maybe we SHOULD remove all guns from America. After all, as a nation you've shown you can't be trusted with deadly weapons.

When Americans have demonstrated their capacity not to go around killing each other, not to mention invading other countries and killing their citizens, THEN America can have its guns back. After all, there are countries out there which manage to combine high rates of gun ownership with low murder rates and peaceful foreign policies - look across the border at Canada, or (if you can find it on a map) Switzerland.

Unlike Canadians and Swiss, however, Americans have shown themselves up to be a nation of paranoid psychotics willing to use deadly force upon each other and the rest of the world. And as a citizen of a country which lies increasingly under American political and cultural dominance, I'm sick of it.

[Osborn F Enready]

Well, it seems appeals to emotion are all that are valid in here anymore?

Obviously data and logic are not currencies accepted anymore?

Where are the facts that show removing guns reduces crime? Oh, thats right, non-existent. In fact, reducing guns INCREASES crime, and INCREASES the number of innocent victims OF CRIME, it just disarms them and puts them at the mercy of their CRIMINAL ATTACKERS.

You people can talk about death rates, murder rates, blah blah blah all you want, you have no facts to support your arguments, gun control has been proven a myth, and many of those living in nations NOW disarmed, are seriously regretting their choices to back such absurd legislation.

I own my firearms, and I will never surrender them, unless there is VALID evidence against me comitting a crime against the rights of another.

You want my firearms, too bad.
You want to empower people to take them, shame on you, cause that will be blood on your hands, not mine.

"A nation of sheep, begets a government of wolves"
H.L. Mencken

Sorry, I am no sheep, intend to be no sheep, and refuse to abide by the ignorance of other sheep even if they all do want to pull their pants down to be raped by the criminals of society.....

The anti-gunners here have lost any respect I may have had for them, but some of them knew that already.... respect isn't an issue for them since they have treated gun owners, no matter how law abiding and peaceful with no respect since day one.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Gods_Mercenary What the hells to stop a criminal from getting a gun?

In the U.S. ?? LOL!! Certainly not a lack of availability.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Any one who wants a gun just has to take a jont down to mexico and sneak an arsenal up.

You have it exactly back-asswards.

US guns arm Mexico's drug wars

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[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Sonart US guns arm Mexico's drug wars

HA! That does more to implicate Democrats, and Republicans than anything else.

Quote by: Sonart You have it exactly back-asswards.

Wrong.


However, keep cheering for the bad guys atop your self created ( yet fictional ) moral high horse.

[Gods_Mercenary]

In the U.S. ?? LOL!! Certainly not a lack of availability.

There are 875 million firearms in the world, and factories even in strictly gun controlled country's churn out more every day. A truly motivated person almost anywhere besides an institution can access a weapon.

By the way, you still haven't responded to the fact that there's not a ban of a desirable material good in american history that has not created crime, never mind been marginally successful.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Milton Bradley Oh, so it's just bleeding heart Liberalism. Message recieved.

Wow, now there's a hell of an rebuttal to Aussie's point.

Quote by: Milton Bradley Wrong.

It's interesting how I'm the one who attached a source to my statement while Milton couldn't be bothered, yet I'm wrong.

A fascinating universe you have here.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary There are 875 million firearms in the world,...

And about 200 million of them, a bit less than 25%, are here, in the United States. That means that a 20th of the world's population possesses a quarter of it's non-military firearms.

And you question why we're the most murderous civilized nation on earth? (guns - being invented and designed to kill from a distance - vastly increase the percentage of deaths involved in violent crimes)

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary ...and factories even in strictly gun controlled country's churn out more every day. A truly motivated person almost anywhere besides an institution can access a weapon.

And yet, in countries with stricter gun control, there's far fewer deaths. Yada, yada, yada...

that 800 lb gorilla is still sitting there, smack in the middle of the room.

Quote by: Osborn Where are the facts that show removing guns reduces crime?

What the facts show, Osborn, is that we are simultaneously the most heavily armed nation on earth and among the most murderous and violent. Period.

And by the way, statistics show a wash... increased defenses with guns balance with increased crimes involving guns, and, more importantly, more deaths because of guns.

The rest of those facts simply reflect the overall crime level, which usually corresponds with the overall economy. Times are good, crimes go down, times get tough, crimes go up.

Quote by: Osborn In fact, reducing guns INCREASES crime, and INCREASES the number of innocent victims OF CRIME, it just disarms them and puts them at the mercy of their CRIMINAL ATTACKERS.

Is that right?

7. The Criminal's Companion, Florida's Concealed Weapons Law—A Model for the Nation? -- Between the months of October 1987 and July 1995, a total of 469 individuals were identified as having committed crimes—including assault with intent to murder, kidnaping/attempted kidnaping, and shooting with intent to wound—either before obtaining the Florida concealed carry license or after having been licensed.

8. Real-World Effects of Lax Concealed Weapons Laws --
In the period surveyed, an additional 149 individuals had their licenses revoked for crimes committed either before or after their concealed weapons license was issued. The crimes included aggravated assault with a firearm, robbery, domestic battery, and criminal sexual conduct. [/b]

9. Arrests Involving Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders -- Two years after Texas' "shall-issue" concealed handgun license law went into effect, more than 940 arrest records existed involving concealed handgun license holders. This study examines the arrest records for this group for the period between January 1996 and October 1997.

* From January 1996 to October 1997 Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for 946 crimes, including 263 felony arrests.
* Among the felony arrests, there were: six charges of murder or attempted murder involving four deaths; two charges of kidnaping; 18 charges of sexual assault; 66 assault charges, including 49 for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon; and 42 weapons-related charges.
* In the first six months of 1997 the weapon-related arrest rate among concealed handgun license holders was more than twice as high as that of the general population of Texas aged 21 years and older.

10. An Update on Arrests of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders -- * In the period surveyed, more than one thousand additional Texas license holders had been arrested, bringing the total for both reports to 2,080.
* The arrests included 15 charges of murder or attempted murder, 28 arrests for rape/sexual assault, 30 arrests for indecency with children, and 103 arrests for assault with a deadly weapon.

Quote by: Gods _Mercenary By the way, you still haven't responded to the fact that there's not a ban of a desirable material good in american history that has not created crime, never mind been marginally successful.

In the last 40 years there's been an almost 50% drop in the number of Americans who smoke, yet cigarettes have never been banned.

It's about changing Americans attitudes towards guns, which is already happening. Fewer and fewer American households own firearms. We should accelerate that trend, first and foremost by making clear that we do NOT have a constitutional right to own firearms.

If that changes in June, then Americans should work to overturn the Roberts Court Ruling, and return to the current standing Supreme Court case law precedent.

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[Milton Bradley]

You know Sonart, nobody has attempted to refute your statistics, so why do you keep posting them? What we are refuting are those "facts" that you infer from those statistics.


I know, it's so you don't have to respond to any questions that you don't like, or can't address due to other inconvenient truths.

[Gods_Mercenary]

And yet, in countries with stricter gun control, there's far fewer deaths. Yada, yada, yada... that 800 lb gorilla is still sitting there, smack in the middle of the room.

I'll take the 800 pound gorilla on the sofa over the 5 ton Elephant of government on my chest.

In the last 40 years there's been an almost 50% drop in the number of Americans who smoke, yet cigarettes have never been banned. It's about changing Americans attitudes towards guns, which is already happening. Fewer and fewer American households own firearms. We should accelerate that trend, first and foremost by making clear that we do NOT have a constitutional right to own firearms. If that changes in June, then Americans should work to overturn the Roberts Court Ruling, and return to the current standing Supreme Court case law precedent.

Smoking cigarettes is inherently harmful, first of all, keeping a gun for self defense isn't. The problem is that we do have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, as most judges have agreed. Second of all, the people don't have the ability to directly overturn a court ruling, the forefathers had some insight there as well.

[Winter wind]

I'm really just cleaning up the bad debate

Quote by: OFE Where are the facts that show removing guns reduces crime? Oh, thats right, non-existent. In fact, reducing guns INCREASES crime, and INCREASES the number of innocent victims OF CRIME, it just disarms them and puts them at the mercy of their CRIMINAL ATTACKERS.

Yet you don't post your sources. Could you please post a few?
And my argument is that you have to go all the way or just forget it.

Quote by: MB However, keep cheering for the bad guys atop your self created ( yet fictional ) moral high horse.

Oh, so it's just bleeding heart Liberalism. Message recieved.

Stop venting on the liberals. They aren't in office.

They also comprise around 50% of your country, so get used to working with them.

Also, what's your take on thinks like grenade launchers and modified AK-47s being available to the public?