Justices agree on right to own guns

[leegao]

Not necessarily. Research have shown that about 33 percent of annually produced firearms are imported, of those 33% roughly 2/3 are those commonly used in crimes and the rest are military grade fire-arm rarely seen in your regular crimes. Of course those produced here have seen a dramatic decline in both hand-guns and shotguns but an increase in military grade rifles and other automatic weaponry. While this does coincidentally fit in with the recent increase in automatic weapons in armed robbery but as we can see, the major firearm market post-ban would likely be from foreign import.

But you do have a point there, I guess after all the best way out is to restrict both the market and the supply (both local and foreign) which will act as the most effective deterent.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: leegao Not necessarily. Research have shown that about 33 percent of annually produced firearms are imported, of those 33% roughly 2/3 are those commonly used in crimes and the rest are military grade fire-arm rarely seen in your regular crimes.

So? That's what exists now, right? If the legitimate arms market diminishes, then all you have left are illegally smuggled weapons.

And are you saying that all imported weapons are used in crimes or the military? Other data seems to show differently...

U.S. Department of Justice

"Traced guns come from many countries across the
globe. However, 78% of the guns that were traced
in 1994 originated in the United States and most
of the rest were from--
Brazil (5%)
Germany (3%)
China (3%)
Austria (3%)
Italy (2%)
Spain (2%)."

Only 9% of guns possessed by federal criminals were smuggled.

[leegao]

Well I guess I can't argue with those statistics, but I do still stand by my point that unless we can stem illegal smuggling of firearms from other countries enacting the ban wouldn't accomplish very much.

[Sonart]

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First off, leegao, I've never personally advocated a ban. I'd be happy if Americans simply stopped assuming they had some gawd-given right to own as many deadly weapons as they pleased, and took a more responsible view toward the unchecked proliferation of firearms and a less slavish devotion to our love affair with guns.

For examples, popular entertainment media showing people using seatbelts and not smoking can affect behavior, by not romanticizing destructive behaviors. Maybe one day media can stop portraying Americans as folks who instantly have their .45s cocked and up at the first hint of trouble, and Americans will stop seeing themselves as romantically armed to the teeth.

The way it is now, I compare it to taking aspirins for cancer. Having guns may make you feel somewhat better, but it doesn't help the problem and, in fact, only makes it worse for ignoring and feeding it.

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[Chris the Chees]

Take a look at that murder rates chart that Sonart posted.. Switzerland has a considerably smaller murder rate than the United States, but yet, Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. Military training is mandatory for young men, and they keep their assault rifles at home.

A nonsensical comparison because Switzerland lacks the violent crime, high population desity, etc, that the US cities do.

No, a far better country to use as a comparison is the UK. Which has large urban populations and comparable levels of violent crime.

One of the reasons that Switzerland was not invaded by the Germans in World War 2 was because the whole country has military training and guns.

Actually it was more because Switzerland offered Nazi Germany vast economic concessions and provided both the Allies and Axis powers an ideal diplomatic neutral zone. Nazi Germany never invaded because it wasn't in Nazi Germanys interest to invade.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: Chris the Chees No, a far better country to use as a comparison is the UK. Which has large urban populations and comparable levels of violent crime.

The UK has some of the strictest gun control laws out of any democracy, so why does it still have lots of violent crime? The UK does have a lot less murders, but it has higher rates of other crimes than the United States. You are more likely to get mugged, assaulted, or your home burglarized in the UK. Despite the gun control laws, the criminals are still using guns for these crimes. I don't think that situation is any better. Where the people are banned from defending themselves, the criminals have no fear.

I don't think banning honest citizens from owning guns is the answer. Criminals will always be able to get guns from the black market. Better to allow people to defend themselves, and work on changing the social ills that cause so much crime in the first place, in my opinion.

Quote by: Chris the Chees Actually it was more because Switzerland offered Nazi Germany vast economic concessions and provided both the Allies and Axis powers an ideal diplomatic neutral zone. Nazi Germany never invaded because it wasn't in Nazi Germanys interest to invade.

Someone already asked me about that, and I said:

You're right, upon reflection I can see I was way oversimplifying there.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Lindsay The UK does have a lot less murders, but it has higher rates of other crimes than the United States.

You just said it, right there... they have a lot less murders.

"Although England already had tough restrictions in place, champions of the gun control laws say the new limits have been vital in keeping fatal shootings relatively rare." -- Apr. 2007

"Britain has some of the toughest gun laws in the world, and has done a great deal to choke off the supply - but as long as there is a demand for guns there will always be someone willing to find a way to provide them, at a price.

Since a ban on handguns was introduced after Thomas Hamilton murdered 16 children and their teacher at Dunblane in 1996, many police officers and criminologists believe criminals have found it harder and harder to find guns.

"The suggestion that Britain is awash with guns is simply not true," one senior police officer told the BBC News website." -- BBC, Nov. 2007

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[lindsay7]

Quote by: Sonart . You just said it, right there... they have a lot less murders.

I don't think you can say that's due solely to gun control laws. The US could have more murders because they have more gangs killing each other over territory, etc. Cultural differences play a role.

Quote by: Sonart "Although England already had tough restrictions in place, champions of the gun control laws say the new limits have been vital in keeping fatal shootings relatively rare." -- Apr. 2007 "Britain has some of the toughest gun laws in the world, and has done a great deal to choke off the supply - but as long as there is a demand for guns there will always be someone willing to find a way to provide them, at a price. Since a ban on handguns was introduced after Thomas Hamilton murdered 16 children and their teacher at Dunblane in 1996, many police officers and criminologists believe criminals have found it harder and harder to find guns. "The suggestion that Britain is awash with guns is simply not true," one senior police officer told the BBC News website." -- BBC, Nov. 2007 .

Here's an excerpt from a great article by the BBC News in the UK. It has lots of good information in it, but I won't post the whole article, though the link is at the bottom. Interesting that when lawful citizens are banned from owning guns, the criminals start using them more in crimes...

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned. The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals. The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead. But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising. The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

BBC News | UK | Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

[lindsay7]

Here's an excerpt from a more recent article.. from 2007.

A spokeswoman for Mothers Against Guns said: "This epidemic needs to be addressed by everyone in the UK. We need to educate and motivate young people to stay clear of gangs and guns. "To have a 55 per cent increase in firearms offences over the last 10 years is proof that this government is not tackling the problem properly." There were 21,521 reported crimes involving firearms in England and Wales in 2005/6, according to the Home Office. That's a 55 per cent increase on a decade earlier, when there were 13,876 gun-related offences. It averages 414 gun crimes every week. 50 of the total firearm crimes were murders. 7,248 were for other violent incidents against another person. Gun-related incidents hit their peak in 2003/04 when there were 24,094 recorded offences. Six out of every 100 people in England and Wales are believed to own a gun - more than in Iran or Nigeria. The international gun league is headed by America where 90 out of every 100 citizens have a firearm.

Exclusive: Gun crime UK - Mirror.co.uk

[Matt W]

Ah the, Mirror...hang 'em & flog 'em for the masses.

[Sonart]

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The US could have more murders because they have more gangs killing each other over territory, etc. Cultural differences play a role.

And why do we have more gangs killing each other?

Yeah, it's cultural... America's culture of wild-west, dirty harry gun lust.

'I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

Which pretty well corresponds with Britain's last economic recession.



Crime rates tend to drop in good economies (chart below is for the United States)...



and climb in bad...

WASHINGTON, June 2005 — After rising for three years, the nation's murder rate dropped 3.6% last year, according to preliminary figures released Monday by the FBI. The nation's largest cities and rural areas showed the sharpest declines.

Watch U.S. crime rates spike as our economy spirals into recession.

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[lindsay7]

Quote by: Sonart Which pretty well corresponds with Britain's last economic recession. Crime rates tend to drop in good economies (chart below is for the United States)... and climb in bad...

I agree, the economy has a lot to do with crime rates. I think that the economy has more impact on it than gun control laws, and banning guns won't reduce crime.

Quote by: Sonart Watch U.S. crime rates spike as our economy spirals into recession.

Isn't that all the more reason to allow honest citizens to own a gun for protection?

[JaneDoe321]

Quote by: lindsay7 Isn't that all the more reason to allow honest citizens to own a gun for protection?

Not unless families are standing watch at the windows with their frearms. "Check the duty roster, Corporal Junior! Private Princess, you've got third watch, better get some shut eye while you can!"

If they're safely storing their weapons, they're not a whole lot of use (except maybe as a club...) in case of most crimes.

[lindsay7]

Quote by: JaneDoe321 Not unless families are standing watch at the windows with their frearms. "Check the duty roster, Corporal Junior! Private Princess, you've got third watch, better get some shut eye while you can!" If they're safely storing their weapons, they're not a whole lot of use (except maybe as a club...) in case of most crimes.

There is a big deterance factor. A criminal is much less likely to break into a home in an area he knows people own guns. It's just not worth the risk getting shot. That's why the burglary rate in the UK is higher than that of the United States.

[Chris the Chees]

The UK has some of the strictest gun control laws out of any democracy, so why does it still have lots of violent crime?

Well, I would point to an inferior criminal justice system and urban areas of relative poverty and a low standard of living condition. But the point is that is the same as the US and the violent crime rates match.

but it has higher rates of other crimes than the United States.

Indeed it does. But that proves the folly of your argument. If Britain has a more violent society, then why did we see only 765 murders between 2005/6, including some 52 people murdered in a terrorist attack (which accounts for nearly 7% of that total); while the US saw 17,034 murders in 2005? Thats around 22 times more murders in the US than the UK, and the population is only five times larger. Well the answer is that our eminently violent criminals don't have the easy access to deadly fire arms that America's criminals do. Its that simple. Had our criminals had access to the millions of firearms that are open to the American criminal, no doubt ours would be just as murderous. As it happens, it isn't so they don't.

Sources: -

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2006

Crime Statistics for England and Wales - Long-term national recorded crime trend: Homicide

And I would much rather be mugged than shot. I've lived through the former, I doubt I would the latter.

I don't think banning honest citizens from owning guns is the answer. Criminals will always be able to get guns from the black market.

No, they won't. It is simple case of supply and demand. If you remove guns from a society, then that cripples the supply, thus raising the price on the black market. Criminals are forced to go through the highly risky and expensive process of illegally smuggling weapons into the country, which raises the price for the buyers making those criminals able to buy such weapons not only highly connected but also with money to spend. The other method of acquiring weapons is by reactivating deactivated weapons or activating replica weapons. The result of that is that the criminal firing the weapon is unlikely to hit a barn door from spitting distance. In other words, if you ban guns then you vastly cripple the supply of weapons and as such the number of criminals in possession of them; and that is exactly what has happened in the UK.

Isn't that all the more reason to allow honest citizens to own a gun for protection?

No, because if the honest citizens are able to carry guns then, as has already been shown in this thread, honest citizens are all the more likely to be the victims of gunshot wounds.

[JaneDoe321]

I believe the incidence of accidental firearm deaths (especially among children) is higher in America than in England ( Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries) granted this data is about 10 yrs old but...

[lindsay7]

If so few criminals have guns in the UK now, why has gun crime been rising?

From 2007..

THE government was accused yesterday of covering up the full extent of the gun crime epidemic sweeping Britain, after official figures showed that gun-related killings and injuries had risen more than fourfold since 1998. The Home Office figures - which exclude crimes involving air weapons - show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06. That means that more than 10 people are injured or killed in a gun attack every day. This weekend the Tories said the figures challenged claims by Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, that gun crime was falling. David Davis, the shadow home secretary, tells her in a letter today that the “staggering findings” show her claims that gun crime has fallen are “inaccurate and misleading”.

Ministers 'covered up' gun crime - Times Online

As well as being converted from air guns and blank firing weapons, handguns are being imported from eastern Europe and beyond. A good quality semi-automatic handgun can be bought on the streets of London for as little as £200.

Focus: Gun crime spreads 'like a cancer' across Britain | UK news | The Observer

That doesn't sound difficult to get a hold of.

[Chris the Chees]

If so few criminals have guns in the UK now, why has gun crime been rising?

When gun crime has increased four-fold (according to the times article you provided) and still occupies less that .5% of all crime, that doesn't say a lot. Or to put it another way zero times a million is still zero.

But that is irrelevent because, according to the actual police statistics, gun crime is not going up; it is going down: -

* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in 2006/07 compared to the previous year. * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07, compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%. * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3% * There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun crimes in 2006/07. * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07. * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07 over 2005/06.

Home Office | Gun crime

That doesn't sound difficult to get a hold of.

Well obviously they are not so easy to get hold of, undoubtedly if they were then criminals would actually use them, as opposed to being employed in less than half a percent of crimes.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: lindsay If so few criminals have guns in the UK now, why has gun crime been rising?

The truth is, Lindsay, I really don't know. If I were to take a wild guess it would be a combination of globilization and easier access to foreign goods, pressures from an exploding world population and the general Rambo/Americanization of the world's cultures over the last 50 years.

What it absolutely isn't, Lindsay, is the idea that Britain hasn't had enough guns, and this applies to countries all over the world that are experiencing increased violence and gun crime.

It was maybe ten years ago that this wonderful chart was circulating the web... it showed the annual number of firearm murders committed in various countries around the world. It was like twenty modern, first world countries and went something like...

Japan -- 16,
England -- 53,
Norway -- 168,
Australia -- 325,
France -- 412,
etc.
etc.
etc.
United States -- 21,683

So the point is... whatever the factors at work in the last few decades, it wasn't because people around the world didn't have enough guns to fight crime in the streets, and having more guns simply makes it worse.

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[BugsBunny07]

Quote by: HelioPrime Justices agree on right to own guns - Yahoo! News I'm guessing this only sets a precedent now? So the gun ban opponents still will have to take the issue to the court. Sad thou. If only the need for guns could be banned universally for all non uniformed citizens. Instead we allow the rights to own them and thus create the need to own them for protection as well.

You will never be able to remove all guns from a society such as America. Even if you allowed police to do a door to door sweep through every home in the Country, criminals would still be able to get guns and use them. This is reality. Iraq is not nearly as big as the U.S., but still, five years after we started looking, with far fewer restrictions than American law enforcement have under the Constitution, and far more resources than American police, there are still illegal weapons out there, and they are still being used to kill the innocent.