Justices agree on right to own guns

[Halofan48]

again, i want to see 3 cases of where it was near impossible for the person to defend themselves with anything other than a gun.

[Osborn F Enready]

Halofan.... can you read?

I just gave you hundreds of examples for you to compile whatever information you want within those two links.

I don't spoon feed information, if that is what you want, you may want to call CNN, FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS or one of the other corrupted propaganda networks.

I want a million dollars, are you going to "give me" that?

Shit in one hand, and demand in the other, tell me which one fills up first.

[Halofan48]

Ya, i read your links, and there was only one story of a case of self defense with a gun. And he could of used a non-lethal weapon. Lets replace the gun with a tazer. Guy halfway through window, he gets tazered.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Tazers work for very short amounts of time, too short for the police to arrive. If the guy is motivated enough, and himself is armed or just plain physically more capable than you, all you've done is ensured a pissed off criminal..

[Milton Bradley]

Lets ask the Native Americans if they can provide three examples of people not being able to defend themselves from armed people initiating force.


I suspect there are many more than three examples.

[Osborn F Enready]

Halofan said: Ya, i read your links, and there was only one story of a case of self defense with a gun. And he could of used a non-lethal weapon. Lets replace the gun with a tazer. Guy halfway through window, he gets tazered.

You obviously didn't read the links, or use the search engine that I provided.

Let me take you on a step by step process, ok?

Step 1:
Go to this link:
NRA-ILA :: Armed Citizen

Step 2:
READ THIS
This archive contains “Armed Citizen” entries from the present back to 1958. The database is searchable by key word and state and results are displayed in chronological order according to the month of publication in the American Rifleman.

To find all records for a specific state, select that state from the drop-down and leave the keyword field blank. Click "submit search".

Step 3:
After hopefully comprehending how to use the search engine, you enter a state from the dropdown menu, and click "SEARCH".

I selected Ohio, and here are some of the results. (1 page of several pages)

The Cincinnati Enquirer Cincinnati, Ohio, 3/24/07 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/2007 JAMIE BUCK WAS jolted awake by a loud noise. According to police, an alcohol-fueled man wielding a sledgehammer shattered a window in the side door and entered Buck's home. The suspect, whose latest release from jail was just seven weeks prior, demanded money or jewelry. Then he swung the sledgehammer at Buck, striking him in the head. In imminent peril, Buck drew a firearm and fired several shots, killing his assailant. Cincinnati Enquirer, Cincinnati, Ohio, 11/18/2006 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2007 AUTHORITIES SAY BENNIE Hall, Jr. went outside to warm up his car before work, then returned inside to finish getting ready. He left the door open to keep his car in view, but briefly entered a back room to holster the .45 pistol he is licensed to carry. At that point he heard his car pulling away. "I looked, and the car was gone," Hall said. He spotted the car turning around at the street's dead end, and when it came past his house, he attempted to stop it by waving his arms in the air. Instead of giving himself up, the carjacker veered directly at Hall in an apparent attempt to leave no witnesses to the crime. Hall shot into the car, killing the driver. "Mr. Hall has a right to protect himself with deadly force if his life is in danger ... Based on the totality of the evidence and circumstances, he was doing just that," said County Prosecuting Attorney Joe Deters. The Columbus Dispatch, Columbus, OH, 07/01/06 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2006 Police said a carryout restaurant employee was restocking shelves and cleaning after hours when two masked burglars entered the store by breaking a lock off a security gate and shattering the glass of the front door. Hearing the ruckus, the employee, armed with a handgun, went to investigate. When one of the intruders confronted him with a crowbar, he shot him once in the upper chest, killing him. The dead man's accomplice fled, but police apprehended him two blocks away. The suspect was charged with murder for committing a felony in which an accomplice was killed, and with aggravated burglary. NewsChannel5, Cleveland, OH, 03/07/06 State: oh American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/2006 A 75-year-old grandmother had problems with people trying to break into her home, which is why she bought a small pistol she fondly calls "the peacekeeper." So she was ready when, according to police, two teens came looking for trouble. The burglars could not see the woman, but with the assistance of a mirror, she observed them breaking into her door while she tried to dial 9-1-1. Once inside, the thugs found themselves face-to-face with the woman's pistol, and one look was all it took for them to flee. Police caught up with the suspects after a brief pursuit. The Vindicator, Youngstown, OH, 11/01/05 State: oh American Rifleman Issue: 2/1/2006 George Swita, who served in Gen. Patton's Third Army in World War II, brought back a German Luger that was on a truck full of captured German arms. Though he kept the pistol clean, he no longer used it for target practice. He began carrying it between his home and vehicle, however, after an assailant hit him in the face and stole $60 from his wallet. It was a decision that may have saved his life. Police say an attacker grabbed Swita around the neck as he unlocked his front door. Swita fired two shots, hitting the crook in the head and killing him. "Was I scared? You bet, both times!" Swita said. Cincinnati Enquirer, Cincinnati, OH, 07/10/05 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/2005 Gayle Martin was sound asleep when the doorbell rang at 5 a.m., but he didn't open the door because he didn't recognize either of the two men standing on his porch. He continued watching the men through his front window as they went around his house and began battering his back door. Within moments, the two thugs came crashing through the door into the kitchen and living room area. That's when Martin drew his .357 Mag. and fired three shots, causing the men to run away. "They were in the house," Martin said. "They had just broken in. I didn't let them get any farther." Authorities found the home invaders nearby, both suffering from gunshot wounds. Grant County Sheriff Randy Middleton called Martin lucky to be alive, adding, "He's a good shot." Dayton Daily News, Dayton, OH, 06/06/05 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2005 The tables were turned on two teenage thugs in a Dayton, Ohio, alley one night in June when they targeted a man licensed to carry a firearm. They approached Mark Hill, and one of the men shoved him. When Hill turned around, they both flashed handguns, according to the police report. Hill backed away, hands outstretched, then pulled out a Glock 23 and fired, hitting one of the gunmen several times. Both men ran off. Shortly thereafter, two 16-year-olds accompanied a 17-year-old to the Good Samaritan Hospital. The latter was admitted with gunshot wounds to his leg, abdomen and arms. Hospital officials notified police, who said all three matched the description of the gunmen and another male he had seen during the robbery attempt. The 16-year-olds were arrested as they tried to leave the hospital, said Dayton Police Sgt. Dennis Chaney. It was Dayton's first defensive shooting by a holder of a concealed-carry permit, said Chaney. Dayton Daily News, Dayton, OH, 01/15/05 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2005 Thanks to the quick thinking of a sub shop owner in Dayton, Ohio, a robbery attempt was quickly thwarted. The manager and his wife were working the morning shift when they spotted a man with a mask and sunglasses heading toward the store with a gun in hand. The owner triggered the security system and retrieved his gun. One employee described what happened next: "[The suspect] got up on the counter. I was scared. I just dropped to the floor." The robber, however, who was pointing his gun at the manager, did not even have time to speak because the manager pointed his gun and shot him in the arm. He fled and was later apprehended at his sister's house. He was expected to be charged with aggravated robbery. The Jackson County Times-Journal, Jackson, OH, 10/11/04 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2005 A Jackson, Ohio, man was not going to let the fact that he was in a wheelchair stop him from protecting himself or his home. So when two men pulled into his driveway and one broke into the garage from the back door, Roy Lundy, Sr., fired a shot at him. The intruder retreated and, shortly thereafter, Lundy saw the men drive away. When police arrived they found that, in addition to the garage being broken into, the robbers had broken in through the kitchen, although it was not immediately clear whether anything had been stolen. The Blade, Toledo, OH, 05/18/04 State: OH American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004 During the entire robbery, Habib Howard focused on the gun pointed at him. The intruder had entered Howard's Carryout just moments before, walked to the back, picked up a 12-pack of beer, and brought it to the cash register where Howard had just relieved a female employee. Before Howard could ask for an ID required to purchase the beer, the man drew a handgun, pointed it at Howard, and demanded money. Howard complied, opening the cash register and trying to back away. The robber demanded Howard place the money on the counter. Again he complied and then stepped back. As he took the money and began backing out of the store, the robber raised his gun. Howard responded by drawing his own gun and shooting the gunman, who fled the store. The gunman and an accomplice, identified as Jose Custodia-Mota and Alberto Martinez, respectively, were apprehended and charged with aggravated robbery.

Hopefully now, you can actually read some of the material I provided, as you have asked, and figure out your own conclusion based on ACTUAL DATA.

[Milton Bradley]

Here is a little quote I stumbled upon when a friend returned an old magazine.

Quote by: Jim Gardner Jeff Cooper, the dean of handgunners, rightly observeds only two nations have a cultural history of the hand gun - The United States of America, and Mexico. While people of all nations have employed the handgun, only in these two countries does there exist a period of history where the handgun was considered the normal accompaniment of the free man. Both countries share a birth, or rebirth by means of armed rebellion, as well as a period of expansion in which the government was ill enabled to protect the common citizen, and during which the citizen was empowered, and expected to be the protector of himself, and those in his charge.

That is why it should be obvious to some people that there does indeed exist a right of for the citizen to keep, and bare arms.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Milton Bradley That is why it should be obvious to some people that there does indeed exist a right of for the citizen to keep, and bare arms.

That's not all the U.S. and Mexico share...



Among the 37 richest nations, we share the highest rate of gun related deaths per 100,000 people.

Interesting what some folks think should and shouldn't be obvious.

.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Sonart That's not all the U.S. and Mexico share... Among the 37 richest nations, we share the highest rate of gun related deaths per 100,000 people. Interesting what some folks think should and shouldn't be obvious.

Should we take cars away as well? Swimming pools? Swords? Windows?


The point you constantly overlook is that the gun does not commit those crimes. Just like the car does not commit vehicular manslaughter.


Until you come to grips with the obvious flaw in your reasoning, you remain in denial. Now, I know that there aspects of your insanity that you appreciate, or have even grown fond of, as articulated in your signature, but this is an aspect of your disorder that you need to confront in order to be taken seriously. This part of your disorder is like smoking, it's stinking up the whole fricken place.


Cause, and effect. Grasp it. Deal with it.


The US, and Mexico lead in that catagory for the same reason we place highly on the vehicular death statistic sheet, there are lots of cars/guns here.


Cause, and effect.

[Halofan48]

Milton, a gun was made to kill things easily and from a distance. Also, without a gun, murder would be a lot more difficult.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Halofan48 Milton, a gun was made to kill things easily and from a distance. Also, without a gun, murder would be a lot more difficult.

I'm sorry, but the very fact that you think I don't grasp that is a slap in the face.


Come to grips with reality man, this is not Utopia.

[Halofan48]

Then i assume you know that a car was made for transport. Swimming pools are for enjoyment or exercising purposed, Windows for enjoyment and aesthetics. Really, a sword is the only real weapon of that group. Yet, and i'm sure you are aware of this, killing someone with a gun is much easier than killing someone with a sword. With a sword, you have to close with the person. A gun has a much greater range. Also, the blade has other uses like food preparation and cutting of materials for a project. A gun's sole purpose is to cause injury.

[Osborn F Enready]

A guns whole purpose is to LEVEL people with greatly differing ability to the same level, empowering the weak and the strong, the young and the old, the physically handicapped and the extreme athelete, the common man and the soldier, to an equal right of defense.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Halofan48 Then i assume you know that a car was made for transport. Swimming pools are for enjoyment or exercising purposed, Windows for enjoyment and aesthetics. Really, a sword is the only real weapon of that group. Yet, and i'm sure you are aware of this, killing someone with a gun is much easier than killing someone with a sword. With a sword, you have to close with the person. A gun has a much greater range. Also, the blade has other uses like food preparation and cutting of materials for a project. A gun's sole purpose is to cause injury.

It's probably easier to access, and kill somebody with a car. Think about it.


This is where your argument falls apart.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Milton Bradley Should we take cars away as well? Swimming pools? Swords? Windows?

We've been here, Milton, and this is simply a pathetic excuse at an argument. I bet I can look down on a single section of I-805 in the late afternoon and watch more cars pass by in a couple of hours than the number of guns operated throughout the entire county in a month. And that's just one section of highway. The numbers of times -- and the amount of time -- cars are taken out and used compared to how often guns are operated has to be in the hundreds of thousands to one, making the comparisons of deaths totally meaningless.

Not only that, what would happen to our society if all automobiles were to suddenly disappear? Economic chaos. And if all guns were to disappear? A huge blessing.

How about the number of times a day pools are used per death vs. guns? Swords used per death vs. guns? LOL!! The number of hours per day windows are used per death vs. guns.

You're simply too soaked up in your ideology to comprehend that guns are weapons, invented and designed for one purpose... to kill from a distance ...and on a per use basis are vastly more dangerous than almost anything we could possess.

Quote by: Milton Bradley The point you constantly overlook is that the gun does not commit those crimes. Just like the car does not commit vehicular manslaughter.

And the point you constantly overlook is that in countries with stricter gun control and a less pathological love of guns and gun violence, far fewer people are killed per capita.

You're trading an ideological philosophy for thousands of lives a year and keep imagining that you're somehow coming out ahead, and then try to justify it because someone with guns defended themselves from other people with guns.

Quote by: Milton Bradley The US, and Mexico lead in that catagory for the same reason we place highly on the vehicular death statistic sheet, there are lots of cars/guns here. Cause, and effect.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for finally conceding my point. We lead the world in gun deaths because we have too many friggin' guns here.

Cause and effect. Exactly!!!!

.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready A guns whole purpose is to LEVEL people with greatly differing ability to the same level, empowering the weak and the strong, the young and the old, the physically handicapped and the extreme athelete, the common man and the soldier, to an equal right of defense.

Maybe not a soldier, any trained soldier has a huge advantage over someone who just picked up a gun a few weeks ago, but the point still stands. I could be the biggest, baddest dude ever against a 90 pound woman with a gun, and I'd lose every time unless I was standing a foot away and had spec. ops style training and reflexes.

[Milton Bradley]

Sonart, your argument basically hinges on the fact that people cannot be trusted with guns.


My neighbors can't be trusted with a basket ball, or a skateboard, ( which also fall under the category of public liabilities due to the injuries ) so should we remove these from society as well?

Quote by: Sonart Not only that, what would happen to our society if all automobiles were to suddenly disappear? Economic chaos. And if all guns were to disappear? A huge blessing.

No, I would say that was among the biggest nightmares I could envision.

Quote by: Sonart Thank you, thank you, thank you for finally conceding my point. We lead the world in gun deaths because we have too many friggin' guns here. Cause and effect. Exactly!!!

If the justification is protection of the individual, then how do you arrive at the arbitrary decision that the number of deaths caused by cars is tolerable, yet the number of deaths cause by guns is not?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Maybe not a soldier, any trained soldier has a huge advantage over someone who just picked up a gun a few weeks ago, but the point still stands. I could be the biggest, baddest dude ever against a 90 pound woman with a gun, and I'd lose every time unless I was standing a foot away and had spec. ops style training and reflexes.

Don't underestimate the power of the edged weapon at close range. I know many people without extensive combat training that can open a blade, and stab you in the wrist before you can cock, and discharge a firearm.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Milton Bradley Sonart, your argument basically hinges on the fact that people cannot be trusted with guns. My neighbors can't be trusted with a basket ball, or a skateboard, ( which also fall under the category of public liabilities due to the injuries ) so should we remove these from society as well?

Basketballs and skateboards are not incredibly dangerous weapons, Milton. And in a nation where maybe half of it's young people can find India on a map, while simultaneously being trained and conditioned to violence and mayhem by the ubiquity of both guns and computer simulations like GTA, hell no Americans cannot be trusted with guns.

And the chart I just showed you verifies that we can't.

Quote by: Milton Bradley No, I would say that was among the biggest nightmares I could envision.

Interesting... why would that be? Criminals wouldn't have them, police wouldn't have them, no one would. Where's the nightmare?

If the justification is protection of the individual, then how do you arrive at the arbitrary decision that the number of deaths caused by cars is tolerable, yet the number of deaths cause by guns is not?

Jeez, let me count the ways...

First off, if we're already one of the most violent, murderous nations on earth, how can you suggest that individuals are being protected? Second, as I keep trying to point out, on a per use basis, automobiles are quite safe relative to guns, while simultaneously serving as an incredibly valuable tool for both commerce and society, making travel within the world's third largest nation manageable. Guns just make us more violent because they make deadly violence so easy.

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[Winter wind]

Quote by: MB Should we take cars away as well? Swimming pools? Swords? Windows?

I'm just poking my head in but this is a crappy argument. No tazers don't work, but wait, swimming pools are just as lethal. Only a gun was meant to be lethal and only a gun's sole purpose is to be lethal.

Also, you never addressed the data he presented.

Quote by: OFE A guns whole purpose is to LEVEL people with greatly differing ability to the same level, empowering the weak and the strong, the young and the old, the physically handicapped and the extreme athelete, the common man and the soldier, to an equal right of defense.

The same way nuclear arms are meant to level the playing field.

The flaw in the argument is the destruction caused by this new level of equality.