Israel approves settlement growth

[KayTwee]

Quote by: GHook93 Man the European left is all the same.

Only the extreme left.. most are far more moderate and openly supportive of the Israeli state. Those that aren't include a fair number of the 2nd generation Arabic immigrants so no big surprise in that.

[GHook93]

Quote by: KayTwee Only the extreme left.. most are far more moderate and openly supportive of the Israeli state. Those that aren't include a fair number of the 2nd generation Arabic immigrants so no big surprise in that.

I hope this is the truth! I guess you would probably have better insight. But I would be shocked it Jews in Europe would walk openly in the wearing a Kipa!

[KayTwee]

Quote by: GHook93 I hope this is the truth! I guess you would probably have better insight. But I would be shocked it Jews in Europe would walk openly in the wearing a Kipa!

LOL I see men with kippah every day all over Paris.. so I guess you would be shocked!

That being said, France is arguably the least friendly country in Europe towards Jews, though ironically it is also the second largest population of Jews in the world outside of Israel so it can't be that bad for them. : )

I'm sure we all realize that France has a tenuous relationship with the Jewish people but I honestly believe the majority of issues Jews face in Europe are related to the Arab immigrants. Native Europeans are still rather sensitive towards Jews; Europe has not forgotten the holocaust so soon.

[Nono]

Quote by: GHook I would be shocked it Jews in Europe would walk openly in the wearing a Kipa!

Jeez, G, this really shows how cartoon-like your image of reality is.
I too see kippahs on the street every day. You'd be really shocked.

And your analysis of the Israel/Palestine thing is about as reliable as your kippah-presence estimate. Of course, Israel can do no wrong and has bent over backwards too make peace, if only those Palestinians were a little less rabid.

If Hamas only will agree to the death of every Jew, the destruction of Israel and if PA demands a return of all the refugees and refuses to dismantle the refugee camps then you can make only one inference that they only want "endless strife!" Israel has offered to give and give, but the Palestinians never seem to be flexible and the radicals in control Gaza demand Israel mass-suicide.

Hamas is the whirlwind being reaped by what the Israelis have sown in four decades of settling land that doesn't belong to them while slapping increasingly provocative penalties on the people who live there. There's a lesson there, for anyone willing to learn it.

Return of all refugees, eh? Never heard of a bargaining position?

[Nono]

Quote by: KT France is arguably the least friendly country in Europe towards Jews.

In cushy northwestern Europe, perhaps. But much more friendly than virtually anywhere in Eastern Europe, especially Poland.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono settling land that doesn't belong to them

Yes those Jews settling the land.They should just jump to the sea and not make any more problems.

[Nono]

They're on somebody else's land. That has led to trouble throughout history.

What the hell do you expect?

[shrike]

They're on somebody else's land

And who you to decide?

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono They're on somebody else's land. That has led to trouble throughout history. What the hell do you expect?

So then, Nono, you'd recommend we give Texas and California back to Mexico? At least the Jews can say Israel was their land once before and was taken away from them. Can we? How about if the Jews give Israel back to the Palestinians if the Moslems give Pakistan and Bangladesh back to India. Fair trade???

Quote by: Nono And your analysis of the Israel/Palestine thing is about as reliable as your kippah-presence estimate. Of course, Israel can do no wrong and has bent over backwards too make peace, if only those Palestinians were a little less rabid.

Yeah, Nono... just a little less.


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[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart So then, Nono, you'd recommend we give Texas and California back to Mexico?

No, because that would be an exercise in abstraction. Then the Mexicans (a Spanish-inspired entity) should 'give' it back to the generally poor, unmixed descendants of the original inhabitants and so on ad infinitum.

Simply put, too much time has passed to do anything about it, just as too much water has gone under the bridge in so many other land-grabs around the world.
And on that count I would agree with you that Israel is now a fact that nobody can get around.

But we aren't talking about Israel, Sonart. We're talking about territories occupied militarily by Israel -- somebody else's territory -- which was taken within living memory (I sure remember it) and whose inhabitants have been kicked off their land in drips and drabs over the years as the Israelis have moved in their own people or, very often, people barely off the boat -- Russian Jews (or "Jews") for example.

So kindly lay off the strawman stuff, Sonart. I ain't playin'.

By the way -- the whole settlement thing is a blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is party.
I thought you believed in the rule of law.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono Simply put, too much time has passed to do anything about it, just as too much water has gone under the bridge in so many other land-grabs around the world.

So after another 100 years it will be ok?

We're talking about territories occupied militarily by Israel -- somebody else's territory

Every territory in the world was military occupied(controlled) by some country before being annexed. And there is someone contesting the annexation. But it doesn't mean that they claims are true.

By the way -- the whole settlement thing is a blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is party.

You post the same lie over and over again but fail to prove it.

[Nono]

Ah, shrike, there you go again.
Prove it? How many times I gotta prove it for you until you finally get it? Here goes:

"Article 49 -- The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

So kindly now shut up about proof.

Also, shrike, wipe enough of that foam off your lips so you can swallow a valium without losing it. Then tell yourself ten times over that you will henceforth refrain from accusing me of lying.

[shrike]

"Article 49 -- The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies

[And here we go again:
No one transferred or deported anyone. They have come because they wanted anyway it's not relevant because Pisgat Zeev is annexed territory.
Now its your turn:

[Nono]

"The total number of Jewish settlers is over 500,000 (6.5 % of the Israeli population)."
Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Give up, shrike. Israeli settlements in the occupied territories illegal. Period.

[shrike]

Quote by: Nono "The total number of Jewish settlers is over 500,000 (6.5 % of the Israeli population)." Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Give up, shrike. Israeli settlements in the occupied territories illegal. Period.

Whats you point?You didn't answered my post at all.

[Nono]

Z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z....

No, you're right, shrike, as always...

[shrike]

Z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z.... No, you're right, shrike, as always...

Well as I thought you post some "fact" but never back it up.
You failed to prove how Geneva exactly forbade civilians to make settlements on vacant land.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono No, because that would be an exercise in abstraction. Then the Mexicans (a Spanish-inspired entity) should 'give' it back to the generally poor, unmixed descendants of the original inhabitants and so on ad infinitum.

And yet that doesn't apply to a part of the world that has changed hands repeatedly every few hundred years? Interesting. At least with Israel, as I said, if you keep pealing back through the conquerers, you end up back with the Jews and their homeland of Israel.

Quote by: Nono Simply put, too much time has passed to do anything about it, just as too much water has gone under the bridge in so many other land-grabs around the world.

Is that right? Pakistan was created in 1947. What's the statute of limitations on such things? 50 years? 100 years? 150 years?

Quote by: Nono But we aren't talking about Israel, Sonart.

Actually we kind of are, but that's another discussion.

Quote by: Nono We're talking about territories occupied militarily by Israel -- somebody else's territory -- which was taken within living memory (I sure remember it) and whose inhabitants have been kicked off their land in drips and drabs over the years as the Israelis have moved in their own people or, very often, people barely off the boat -- Russian Jews (or "Jews") for example.

Territory taken after yet another war of annihilation was about to be launched on them. How long did the U.S., Britain and France occupy West Germany after defeating the regime that attacked them? Besides, the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Has Jordan asked for it back? Has Egypt asked for the Gaza strip?

I'll be very honest... back in 1968, (when I was all of 19 years old) I never quite understood why Israel never simply annexed the entire West bank and the Gaza strip. To my pragmatic mind, with Gaza and the West Bank, while Israel would have more territory, it would have far less border to defend. A vitally important consideration if the Arabs were going to insist on invading every 10 years. (or 5 years, as it turned out)



As to the poor Palestinians caught in the middle, hey, c'est la guerre, doods. If you don't wanna keep losing sh!t, then stop attacking Israel. If you don't want to leave, become a Arab Israeli.

To the point, however, the West Bank is what it is, and I think stealing it by "dribs and drabs" while simultaneously declaring your intentions for peace is onerous. Not nearly as onerous as Hamas and Hezbollah, but bad enough to criticize.

As to Shrike's point about these being on annexed territory... after looking up Pisquat Zeev and Givat Zeev, methinks the issue is far greyer than he makes it sound and clearly provocative.

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[Nono]

Well, we've been over and over this, haven't we?

Is that right? Pakistan was created in 1947. What's the statute of limitations on such things? 50 years? 100 years? 150 years?

I'd say about two generations. If you can remember being evicted as a child, you have a claim. Rule of thumb.
So 2,000 years definitely exceeds the limit set by my statute of limitations. Not that Zionism doesn't have something going for it -- if only they'd been wiser in implementing it (yeah, I know, they had no choice but to be unwise ... Bad Arabs!!)

I have in the past already quoted Uri Avnery on this. Here goes again:

"On the fifth day of the war, just after our army had conquered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, I wrote an open letter to Levy Eshkol, proposing that he seize the historic opportunity and offer the Palestinian people the chance to establish a state of their own. I had advocated this idea since 1949, but I was convinced that this moment, with the whole region in a state of shock, was the right time to make peace with the Palestinians by making them an historic offer."
1967: A Personal Testimony (by Uri Avnery) - Media Monitors Network (MMN)
This piece is definitely worth a read.

Quote by: Sonart How long did the U.S., Britain and France occupy West Germany after defeating the regime that attacked them?

Well in a way to this very day. (Does the US still have bases there? Yes.) But the Federal Republic of Germany was founded in 1949. There's a lesson there for Israel, if only it were capable of learning anything in its seemingly incurable hubris.

As to the poor Palestinians ...

Believe it or not, I prefer to talk here about the poor Israelis. Through their arrogant and shortsighted policies they've squeezed themselves into a cage with the Palestinians that they now seem unable to get out of.

They're in for a non-stop shitstorm.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono "On the fifth day of the war, just after our army had conquered the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, I wrote an open letter to Levy Eshkol, proposing that he seize the historic opportunity and offer the Palestinian people the chance to establish a state of their own. I had advocated this idea since 1949, but I was convinced that this moment, with the whole region in a state of shock, was the right time to make peace with the Palestinians by making them an historic offer." 1967: A Personal Testimony (by Uri Avnery) - Media Monitors Network (MMN) This piece is definitely worth a read.

Yeah, yeah, and what would Jesus do? I'm sure, in a perfect world, it would have been a wonderful thing to do, and who knows, maybe the Palestinians would even have taken the opportunity to make peace and leave the path they were on, although I doubt it. 20/20 hindsight is always impressive.

But I somehow find it difficult to greatly fault the victims of an intended war of annihilation for their failure to be magnanimous enough with their attackers after successfully defending themselves.

Quote by: Nono Believe it or not, I prefer to talk here about the poor Israelis. Through their arrogant and shortsighted policies they've squeezed themselves into a cage with the Palestinians that they now seem unable to get out of. They're in for a non-stop shitstorm.

Certainly true to a large degree, but, to my mind, not to the largest degree, and there I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The fact is they've been in a sh!tstorm since the day they came into being. The Israelis are not going to change that, nor should they.

And if anyone's reaping the whirlwind, it's the PLO and Hamas following Palestinians, as all the apologists here keeping whining. But hey, you reap what you sow.

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