Rioting Serbs torch US embassy, loot downtown Belgrade

[grandpa]

1ST LEAD: Rioting Serbs torch US embassy, loot downtown Belgrade

Belgrade (dpa) - Some 200,000 Serbs gathered in Belgrade Thursday to rally against Kosovo's independence and the supportive West, with the demonstration turning into an orgy of vandalism and robbery. Several groups numbering in the hundreds - described locally as hooligans - set the United States embassy ablaze, after penetrating it and defacing it.

I hadn't seen anything about this one here yet. I haven't really seen how the embassy was defaced.

Grandpa h.

[HelioPrime]

The Courant had a front page photo. A big fire coming from several windows, people waving torches and burning american flags out front. A few people in windows throwing things out. etc. Pretty much image of the mob.

[Milton Bradley]

Well, it couldn't have happened to nicer people. LOL

[Chancellor]

Ah, yes, if you're ticked off at some other country, go loot and pillage your own capital city! Yeah, that makes a whole hell of a lot of sense! Not!

[sevendogs]

Do serbs receive our economical and other assistance? Just leave them alone and close the embassy.

[Jack]

It's been pretty well covered in the press.
Results: about 153,000 for Serbs torch US embassy.

[Nono]

If I might be so daring as to get away from the fascinating subject of US property (for just a wee sec, I promise), it does seem to me that it would have been a lot smarter to have given Kosovo independence the green light only on condition that it allow the majority-Serb area in northern Kosovo to remain part of Serbia.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Nono If I might be so daring as to get away from the fascinating subject of US property (for just a wee sec, I promise), it does seem to me that it would have been a lot smarter to have given Kosovo independence the green light only on condition that it allow the majority-Serb area in northern Kosovo to remain part of Serbia.

That's one risk to supporting Kosovo in any acquisition. Serbia will probably try to regain control of the territory. Then, of course, it can make the US into a "de-stabilizing" factor of the region.

Any sides involved may be eying "vast oil reserves," and Kosovo has plenty of Nickel, Cadmium, Copper, Zinc, Gold.

New Kosova Report - Vast oil reserves found in northern Albania


Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Nono If I might be so daring as to get away from the fascinating subject of US property (for just a wee sec, I promise), it does seem to me that it would have been a lot smarter to have given Kosovo independence the green light only on condition that it allow the majority-Serb area in northern Kosovo to remain part of Serbia.

Bosnian Serbs remained in Bosnia. Kosovo Serbs can remain in Kosovo. Or move. I have zero sympathy for Serbian nationalists after what they did to minorities under their control.

[grandpa]

I have no love for ultra-nationalist Serbs, either, but I should note that Serbia's violence was extremely hyped in the Western media, presumably so NATO would enjoy more public support.

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: grandpa I have no love for ultra-nationalist Serbs, either, but I should note that Serbia's violence was extremely hyped in the Western media, presumably so NATO would enjoy more public support. Grandpa h.

It's not too difficult to "hype" concentration camps, mass rape of Bosnian women, the brutal siege of Sarajevo, and Kosovo ethnic cleansing.







BBC News | EUROPE | Bosnia concentration camp guards jailed

KOSOVO: Ethnic Cleansing redux

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider It's not too difficult to "hype" concentration camps, mass rape of Bosnian women, the brutal siege of Sarajevo, and Kosovo ethnic cleansing.

Well, the only atrocities mentioned were Serbian. Plenty of Muslims slaughtered Serbs, but this received next to no mention. And I have yet to see evidence of an actual "rape policy." But NATO wanted to bomb Serbia, and did for 78 days -- which only excalated the violence.

As for that photo, it's hard to be absolutely certain.
I've heard/read that the picture may be from a refugee camp, not necessarily a "death camp," (though it's possible some number of people died there, were killed and even tortured -- as happens with cruel guards in detention centers during times of war). I'm certainly not trying to justify the camps, Serbia's actions, etc. but there is controversy over exactly how many Serbian crimes were real and how many were fabricated for anti-Serbian propaganda. It especially makes sense to be skeptical when KLA crimes received practically no coverage.

Also, it is well-known that NATO bombings simply devestated Yugoslavia, and that tensions were increased. Part of it demanded that "NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations."
That's obviously giving NATO total control of the country -- a denial of national sovereignty, no matter how you slice it.

(SOURCEL "NATO's Peace Enforcement Tasks and Policy Communities: 1990-1999" By Giovanna Bono, pg. 131)

In the June 28th, 1999 issue of the Daily Telegraph,
Henry Kissinger was quoted as saying:
"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form."

Here's an article quoting Fikret Alic, the "emaciated" man in the photo and video footage:
He was the face of Bosnia's civil war - what happened next? | World news | The Observer

Here are some links attempting to refute the concentration camp story, and I wouldn't consider them totally inadmissable:
YouTube - Serbian "Death Camps" In Bosnia/ Anti-Serb Propaganda 3/3

LM vs ITN: The Picture That Fooled The World

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: grandpa Well, the only atrocities mentioned were Serbian. Plenty of Muslims slaughtered Serbs, but this received next to no mention.

Ah, the poor victimized Serbian ultranationalists!!! Some Muslims actually butchered Serbs AFTER the Yugoslavian Army and allied paramilitary units slaughtered them. Gee, I can never guess why. Encircling Sarajevo and launching artillery strikes from hillside positions on defenseless civilians in the valley below was the fault of Muslims. Yeah, poor Slobodan Milosevic and his misunderstood gang of jackbooted goons!

You know, during WWII, the Russians committed more than a few atrocities following Hitler's failed winter offensive. They got less press coverage too. But that didn't mitigate the Nazi atrocities, except for a few diehard Holocaust deniers, a couple of whom still infest this site. There are Serbian Atrocity Deniers too. What a surprise.

But they can't deny with any credibility the testimony delivered at the Hague War Crimes Tribunal or the independent human rights reports that catalog in minute detail Serbian war crimes and the genesis in Belgrade's highest government offices. Did Muslim groups react viciously? Yeah. They did in Chechnya too after Russian army units decimated Grozny. But you don't see any distinction between aggressors and defenders apparently. I do.

The Serbian nationalists can go to Hell where they belong. Kosovo and Bosnia are independent and will stay that way.

Here's the Human Rights Watch report for Kosovo 1999. It mentions atrocities on both sides, but lays blame where it belongs--with Milosevic's Serbian thugs:

"This report documents torture, killings, rapes, forced expulsions, and other war crimes committed by Serbian and Yugoslav government forces against Kosovar Albanians between March 24 and June 12, 1999, the period of NATO's air campaign against Yugoslavia.

The report reveals a coordinated and systematic campaign to terrorize, kill, and expel the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo that was organized by the highest levels of the Serbian and Yugoslav governments in power at that time. Naturally, these crimes did not occur in isolation.

This report outlines the historical and political context of the war, with a critique of the international community's response to the developing crisis over the past decade.

Three chapters also document abuses committed by the ethnic Albanian insurgency known as the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which abducted and murdered civilians during and after the war, as well as abuses by NATO, which failed adequately to minimize civilian casualties during its bombing of Yugoslavia.

Nevertheless, the primary focus of this report is the state-sponsored violence inflicted by the Serbian and Yugoslav governments in 1999 against ethnic Albanian citizens of Yugoslavia."

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider Ah, the poor victimized Serbian ultranationalists!!! Some Muslims actually butchered Serbs AFTER the Yugoslavian Army and allied paramilitary units slaughtered them.

Look, I didn't absolve Serbs from blame. I would actually consider "Serbian ultranationalists" as my enemies. However, this attitude that Serbs were the only ones slaughtering people and that they had an official "rape policy" is absurd. To this day, I have seen no evidence of such a policy, which leads me to believe it was merely propaganda concocted to sell NATO intervention. That's very much plausible and I'm not going to apologize and feel sorry for adopting this view until evidence of a "rape policy" is presented. Again, it ha snothing to do with my being allied with Serbs. It's a matter of basic principle, which makes all the more sense when coupled with an awareness of wartime propaganda.

On top of this, it's pretty well known that the KLA committed many terrible acts and that the NATO bombing campaigns were just another series of atrocities (which went on for over 70 days, devastated Yugoslavia and increased hostilities).

Grandpa h.

[The Decider]

Quote by: grandpa Look, I didn't absolve Serbs from blame. I would actually consider "Serbian ultranationalists" as my enemies.

That's good to hear. I missed that sentiment in your OP.

Quote by: grandpa However, this attitude that Serbs were the only ones slaughtering people

Full stop! Where did I EVER say that Serbs alone slaughtered people? Where did the US government or NATO EVER make such a claim. Please provide evidence or retract this statement.

Kosovo and Bosnian Muslims killed Serbs AFTER they were viciously attacked by the superior forces of Yugoslavia and their allied paramilitary units.

Quote by: grandpa and that they had an official "rape policy" is absurd. To this day, I have seen no evidence of such a policy, which leads me to believe it was merely propaganda concocted to sell NATO intervention.

Absurd? The independent HRW report found evidence of serial rape in Kosovo and NO investigations and NO punishments by the Serbian controlled army and paramilitary militias. According to the Geneva Conventions, the occupying authority--Serbia at the time--have the responsibility for law and order. If they allow their forces to rape and pillage without restraint, the national government of Serbia has committed a war crime. That's considered "official policy."

Have they found a memo from Slobodan Milosevic that reads "Serbian Forces: Rape Kosovars and Bosnians at Will!"? No. It's not needed to prove "official policy."

Quote by: grandpa That's very much plausible and I'm not going to apologize and feel sorry for adopting this view until evidence of a "rape policy" is presented.

Whether you apologize or feel sorry is not dependent on the facts. The HRC report is damning evidence of systematic brutality of Muslim communities under Serbian control by Serbian armed forces. It shows evidence of Kosovar atrocities too, but only after the Serbs attacked.

Quote by: grandpa On top of this, it's pretty well known that the...NATO bombing campaigns were just another series of atrocities (which went on for over 70 days, devastated Yugoslavia and increased hostilities).

Well, international calls for Serbian thugs to cease their unprovoked slaughter of Muslims went unheeded. "Pretty please" didn't seem to move the Serbian ultranationalists and Albanians were fixing to enter the conflict in support of the Kosovars. A wider Balkan war was brewing. I reject your attempt to equate the Kosovar/NATO actions with the years of Serbian atrocities by a modern military forces against weaker ethnic minorities. It's a false equivalency in the service of your own anti-NATO, anti-American, anti-"system" propaganda.

[D Sretenovic]

The Decider, it seems to me that you`re trying to justify the crimes performed by the KLA and Bosnian Muslim forces, by stating that they they were the second to act- the Serbs were the first to commit crimes, by your opinion and information. You` re not aware, though, that you` re using the same rhetoric as the people you oppose.
Milosevic` s politics on a Kosovo` s issue was terribly wrong, but he actually based it on a payback for Albanian discriminatory acts against the local Serbs. There were killings and forcing out of homes and lands on Kosovo before 1999 as well. I think you can easily find demographic facts- the number of Serbs on the Kosovo territory in the year 1968 was approximately 228 000, year 1989, 194 000, year 1995, there were around 140 000 Serbs. Thus, it is pretty much obvious that the Serbs were objects of Albanian aggression and repression for a very long period.
I mentioned all of these not to approve what was done- I hate Milosevic for what he`s done to others, but to my people as well. In fact, I have more reasons to despise him than you, because what he did, he did it in my and the names of my country men. I only want to say that any crime committed on the Balkans in the 90s by any side cannot be justified in any way, especially not by stating it was just a payback. In that sense, there will always be some ``debts`` to pay.
``Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.`` - Martin Luther King

[The Decider]

Quote by: D Sretenovic The Decider, it seems to me that you`re trying to justify the crimes performed by the KLA and Bosnian Muslim forces, by stating that they they were the second to act- the Serbs were the first to commit crimes, by your opinion and information. You` re not aware, though, that you` re using the same rhetoric as the people you oppose.

False equivalence. I don't "justify" the KLA and Bosnian brutality in response to the Yuglosav aggressors, but it's not in the same league as the latter. During WWII you'll find plenty of examples of Russian and Allied atrocities, but the Nazis began the war and all wars involve atrocities.

Quote by: D Sretenovic Milosevic` s politics on a Kosovo` s issue was terribly wrong, but he actually based it on a payback for Albanian discriminatory acts against the local Serbs. There were killings and forcing out of homes and lands on Kosovo before 1999 as well. I think you can easily find demographic facts- the number of Serbs on the Kosovo territory in the year 1968 was approximately 228 000, year 1989, 194 000, year 1995, there were around 140 000 Serbs. Thus, it is pretty much obvious that the Serbs were objects of Albanian aggression and repression for a very long period.

I have no doubt that Kosovars and Albanians resented their Serbian overlords. Their Bosnian neighbors experienced a similar resentment. When people are oppressed, the radicals on both sides find openings for mischief. But let's not lose sight of which side had the modern weaponry and army. The Serbs.

Quote by: D Sretenovic I mentioned all of these not to approve what was done- I hate Milosevic for what he`s done to others, but to my people as well. In fact, I have more reasons to despise him than you, because what he did, he did it in my and the names of my country men. I only want to say that any crime committed on the Balkans in the 90s by any side cannot be justified in any way, especially not by stating it was just a payback. In that sense, there will always be some ``debts`` to pay. ``Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.`` - Martin Luther King

However, politics requires a settlement. The populations of Kosovo and Bosnia want nothing to do with Serbia. They've had it with Serbian rule. First Bosnia and Herzegovina and now Kosovo have declared independence, and that independence has received recognition from my nation and many others. In response, Serbians sacked my nation's embassy and consulate. If that makes them feel better, fine. But the new political reality stands. And I have no sympathy for any Serb who uses violence to change the unchangable. It's done. Time to talk peace with the Kosovo nation or accept a new home in Serbia.

[D Sretenovic]

I`d just like to add, about the demonstrations held in Belgrade, it seems that some participators of this debate have incorrect information on that topic... There was nearly million people on the streets, not 200 000 and not have all participated in later unrest, attacking embassies and robbing shop windows. In fact, it is estimated that only about 1 000 people took part in those activities and the rest of nation condemned them sharply. It is general opinion that because of them, the world saw us yet again as barbarians, which isn` t a fair image, because, I repeat, a vast majority, including myself, came on streets just to peacefully express support for our people on Kosovo and disagreement with Albanian declaration of independence. Later on, a collective pray was organized, again for the souls of country men, in front of our biggest temple, during a ceremony called ``moleban``. Similar thing happened in the year 2000, when we had a revolution here and have overthrown Milosevic; there were some people using the circumstances again to rob and make undesired mess. But before you jump to conclusions and label something that in general has a legitimate cause, as a vandal act, think again: is it possible that if these things happened in your country, the epilogue would be at least nearly as same?

[The Decider]

Quote by: D Sretenovic I`d just like to add, about the demonstrations held in Belgrade, it seems that some participators of this debate have incorrect information on that topic... There was nearly million people on the streets, not 200 000 and not have all participated in later unrest, attacking embassies and robbing shop windows. In fact, it is estimated that only about 1 000 people took part in those activities and the rest of nation condemned them sharply. It is general opinion that because of them, the world saw us yet again as barbarians, which isn` t a fair image, because, I repeat, a vast majority, including myself, came on streets just to peacefully express support for our people on Kosovo and disagreement with Albanian declaration of independence. Later on, a collective pray was organized, again for the souls of country men, in front of our biggest temple, during a ceremony called ``moleban``. Similar thing happened in the year 2000, when we had a revolution here and have overthrown Milosevic; there were some people using the circumstances again to rob and make undesired mess. But before you jump to conclusions and label something that in general has a legitimate cause, as a vandal act, think again: is it possible that if these things happened in your country, the epilogue would be at least nearly as same?

Yes, most Serbs are great people. They too have suffered under the yolk of brutal dictatorship. And, yes, the Serbian minority in Kosovo has suffered from Kosovar and Albanian attacks. All true.

But those facts can't change history. Kosovo is an independent nation today. Serbs and Kosovo Serbs need to accept reality and work for peaceful resolution of disputes with a new sovereign nation. If the Serbian ultranationalists had treated the Kosovars, Albanians, and Bosnians with justice and humanitarian concern from the beginning, perhaps Serbia would be a geographically larger nation today. Independence movements are the price Serbs must pay for the sins of their former rulers.

Have your street protests. Demonstrate peacefully. Get out your frustrations. Then sit down with Kosovo and work out your future relationship as neighbors, not Serbian occupiers. That's the only way forward now.

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Decider That's good to hear. I missed that sentiment in your OP.

If you had read it thoroughly, I think you would have noticed that sentiment.

Grandpa h.