Rioting Serbs torch US embassy, loot downtown Belgrade

[D Sretenovic]

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[D Sretenovic]

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[D Sretenovic]

Let me take Racak case, for example. Racak is the name of village on Kosovo, where reputedly, Serbian police committed a massacre of Albanian civilians. In fact, this case is considered one of the triggers for NATO intervention against Yugoslavia, year 1999. There was, and still there is a dispute over what really happened there. In that time, a chief of Verification mission of OSCE was William Walker (hope I spelled his name right), and he was the first to call this incident ``massacre`` against civilians, innocent and unarmed. The official version of Belgrade called the event a classical set-up. What really happened is that the Serbian police had conflict with Albanian terrorists, members of KLA, which were all neutralized during the action. The bodies of killed terrorists were later moved and positioned in a way it looked like an execution of civilians. Their clothes were also changed as they were wearing KLA uniforms. So far, it sounds like Serbian imagination, but some time later, another figure arouses in the story. Dr Helena Ranta, the chef of the Finish group of pathologists, ordered to do examination of corps, did an interview, three years ago, 17th January, 2004., to be more precise, for Berliner Zeitung. In that interview she criticized work of Hague Tribunal on the case Racak (this was a part of case against Milosevic, but that`s not important now). She stated that the Tribunal based it`s accusations on the Walker version of event, although she, back then, explained that the viewers of OSCE didn`t follow the standard procedure of gathering evidence from incident scene, which involve: isolation of scene, disallowing access to unauthorized personal, etc. Dr Rante also said that there are some photos, not presented as evidence, as they were made by two neutral photographs. These photos prove that at least one body was moved eventually. Dr Ranta asked why no one mentioned Serbian casualties in this incident, reputedly there were few of them... She added that, in the days before NATO bombing, there were few goverments interested in a version of Racak case, which would involve Serbian responsibility, but she couldn`t offer them such a thing. That`s about it for Dr Helena Ranta, unarguably neutral side of story. Other sources, more or less relevant, state that there are a lot of evidence, backing up the theory that village Racak, was a base of KLA terrorists, who were actually killed in the conflict. Amongst others: the lists of KLA members, schedules of night watch, all found in one house. In the area around village, there were found big amounts of ammo, weapons and uniforms, which were reputedly thrown away by ``civilians``. The bodies of KLA soldiers were all wearing same black trousers, same black belts and same black soldier boots, actually, the only dressing element different one from the others were their shirts. Village Racak is today called as the Walker village by the Albanians.
By the way, my girlfriend lived on Kosovo, she moved to Belgrade after 1999. Her parents told me about some rumours, shared amongst people in Pristina, then. It was said that the large number of Albanians are ``fleeing`` over the borders to Albania, wanting to make an image of ``human catastrophe``. One number left their homes on Kosovo, because of the fear of NATO bombing, quiet natural. One number was scared of Serbian revenge for what they did earlier, so they left, too. One number escaped from KLA, because they didn`t want to take part in their actions, and the KLA didn`t always pick their targets by ethnic origin. And, in the end, regretfully one number was forced from their homes by the Serbs. What the Western media did was puting all those people in one group and stating that ``the Serbs committed ethnic cleansing by exiling 800 000 Albanians``. That`s exaggerating I talked about.

[Mavus]

This is all shocking stuff. I'm actually traveling to Kosovo this summer to help run a summer school for war orphans. I've heard plenty of terrible stories about the war. I've also heard some reasonable justifications against independence.

Many people just want to return to normal life and that hasn't been possible with Kosovo in its recent state of flux. Now stability can grow as long as peace is maintained.

[Roxdog]

Quote by: The Decider Fascinating screed, but I see no evidence that contradicts the findings of HRW or similar organizations. The screed only attacks the HRW for supporting intervention, a policy matter. The implication is that HRW manufactured its data to support the policy, but no proof is offered. Weak. I need to see evidence contradicting the HRW. Be prepared to offer similar evidence to discredit information from Amnesty International and the UN. Specifics, please, not unsupported screeds.

Right....I almost forgot.

MythBusters: The Hoax of the "Death Camps" in Bosnia - 17 Start Your Future Shock17.coM Database Videos Search Entertainment Music Film Casino Sport House Car Business Bank Job Finance Loan Travel Shopping easy Download Any Video From Youtube Youtube

HIR | US and NATO sponsor Islamist terrorism in Bosnia?

[Nono]

Quote by: roxdog HRW is a joke.

Jeez, roxie, how did you get Volconvo to unban you? I see you haven't changed a bit.

Your judgment of HRW is a joke, as is your willingness to believe that the Serbs are some sort of heroically innocent victims, which is the core of their own national myth.

The Croatians, the Serbs -- whoever. People in the Balkans have frequently done savage things to each other. That's their way. But in the 1990s the Serbs were particularly grotesque in their outrages. There are plenty of sources for this outside the Western Corporate Press, so you're barking up the wrong tree there.

HRW was indeed one of the organizations that campaigned for military intervention, since it was the only way to stop the Serb rampage.

And it did.

[The Dunedan]

The problem is that the Balkans are, essentially, a shitpot. The whole area is and, with the exception of the Tito years (less shitpot, more totalitarian dictatorship) pretty much always has been. There are a large number of ethnic groups crammed into a very small territory, they -all- hate each other, and they've -all- got seemingly understandable reasons for doing so. The Serbs hate/massacre the Croats, the Croats hate/massacre the Bosnians, the Bosnians hate/massacre the Serbs, the Albanians hate/massacre the Macedonians and Montenegrans...the list goes on and on and on, all the way back to the 14th Century. This little fratricidal round-robin has been going on since the Jannessaries had their own spot on the Military Channel.

Were the Serbs acting like monsters? Sure, them along with literally everybody else. We now have Kosovo, a prefab failed Islamic state overrun with neo-Islamic totalitarian radicals who run the joint through a truly vicious organized-crime gang also known as the KLA, whom we armed and financed (sound familiar?), sitting on the border of a nation that's still rather annoyed with us and NATO for salting their country with Depleted Uranium and carving their cultural heartland out into a "homeland" for people whom the Serbs consider to be late-arriving carpetbaggers. Kosovo is to Serbia what Dublin is to Ireland or Boston is the U.S.; the place where "it all started" for the Serb people as a self-aware culture. Imagine if the EU forced Alabama to cede Montgomery its' independance, based upon the fact that large numbers of New Yorkers retire there. Now you have some idea of how the Serbs see the issue. And of course, they will probably respond with lethal violence directed against non-combatants, just like in tribal wars all over the world and in all times. We had it here in the U.S. too; look up "Bloody Kansas" or Jackson's response to the "Red Stick" uprising.

Did our bombing stop the Serb rampage? Sure did. Gave handy air-cover to the Kosovar rampage that got up to speed about .0005 seconds later, too, because this is the Balkans and this is tribal warfare. Tribal wars never stop, minus the total eradication of the opposing tribe (which the Kosovars have managed nicely in their area, having ethnically cleansed over 90% of the Serbian population), posession just changes. The Serbs turned it over on Downs, and now the Kosovars get their chance. Pretty soon the Serbs will run out of patience, and then it'll be their turn again. We (The UN, US, and NATO) should be learning from this, and what we should be learning is as follows: Unless you're going to vaporize the totality of all the warring factions and pave over their lands to build a Home Depot, don't get involved in centuries-old ethnic/tribal wars. Nobody ever wins, nobody ever even does well, and they never, EVER stop hating and trying to kill one another.

[D Sretenovic]

But in the 1990s the Serbs were particularly grotesque in their outrages.

Index of /photos
I must warn you that the pictures on this site are extremely unpleasant and disturbing. If you choose to see them, do tell, what can be more ``grotesque`` than those scenes? For someone living far from this area, with very limited information, you take too much liberty for rating these horrible events, no offense.

[Nono]

Quote by: DS Do tell, what can be more ``grotesque`` than those scenes? For someone living far from this area, with very limited information, you take too much liberty for rating these horrible events, no offense.

Unlike you, DS, I try to get an objective picture, whereas you're a sort of one-man Serb propaganda machine.

You say that I "take too much liberty for rating these horrible events", but you know absolutely nothing about what I know, or don't know.
My information about what happened in the Balkans in the 1990s is detailed and personally verfiable. So cut your bullshit.

These photos of yours could be Bosnia or Krajina Serbs, yes. But they would, numerically, be much more likely to represent Bosniaks, say.

The massacre champions for the 1990s are the Serbs, by quite a large margin.

[D Sretenovic]

When I addressed you, I held a polite approach, and now, after your reply I`ll have to adjust to you level, and that is: arrogant and rude (quiet American as SOME, doesn`t have to be me, would say). As I look at your posts I see how frivolous you are, kind a ``expert for all`` type of guy. Just a quick look and I got a picture: Cuba, USA, captured prisoners, Turks in Iraq, spiritual stuff, Serbs, the Balkans... ``jeez``, is there any subject you haven`t commented? Is there any subject you`re not ``expert`` for? Your information about what happened in the Balkans in the 1990s is ``detailed and personally verifiable``? My guess is, based on vast experience with people like you, that you would say the same exact thing if we argued about Cuba, Iraq or your 9/11 conspiracy theories. Sorry, don`t thrust you, as you didn`t even make an effort to offer your sources and you credibility is doubted. ``The massacre champions for the 1990s are the Serbs, by quite a large margin.`` is enough to discredit you as a serious debater, not to mention your attitude, bad language and frivolity. One more thing about your post: ``Bosniak`` means nothing to me. You probably meant Bosnian Muslim. In Bosnia, there are Bosnian Serbs, Muslims and Croats, there are no Bosniaks. Anyway, if you wanted to say that the corps on pictures could have been Muslim, you`re wrong. They are Serbs, which can only be doubted by ignorants... like you. Further more, ``Serb propaganda machine`` in international measures, doesn`t exist, you`ve made it up. Serbs lost a media war, which resulted in many things, amongst others, one of the results is your ``knowledge`` about what happened here. Croatian fascist regime during 90s won it, for example. Result: Fascist Franjo Tudjman, who wrote in his book that Jews and Serbs exaggerate when talking about their WWII victims, was presented as democrat in the west. Alija Izetbegovic, radical Muslim, who also wrote an interesting book where he`s giving thoughts about ``ethnic clean Bosnia``, was presented as a fighter for freedom. That was propaganda.
P.S. Don`t dare to think that I deny crimes committed by my people in the 90s civil war, or on Kosovo. I regret them sincerely and I`m deeply ashamed for every single one of them. But what is the point in saying ``one part made more crimes more then the other``, even if that could be measured, even if there was a valid, independent source everybody could thrust, and there is no such source, nor there`ll ever be? I can believe in one version, some Croat in another, Muslim in third, and you, if you prefer, you can have the fourth one. There are victims and there are ones to blame. No nationalities, just names. Justice will prevail, I hope, but I also have a hunch- the West won` t have anything to do with it.

[Nono]

Quote by: DS As I look at your posts I see how frivolous you are, kind a ``expert for all`` type of guy. Just a quick look and I got a picture: Cuba, USA, captured prisoners, Turks in Iraq, spiritual stuff, Serbs, the Balkans... ``jeez``, is there any subject you haven't commented? Is there any subject you`re not ``expert`` for?

Well, sweety, this is a debate site. So pardon me for using it as such.

What is the point in saying ``one part made more crimes more then the other``, even if that could be measured, even if there was a valid, independent source everybody could thrust, and there is no such source, nor there`ll ever be?

The point is historical accuracy, that's all. We aren't talking about World War II or the 14th century -- when Serbs sometimes were the major victims -- it's the past two decades, a period within living memory.

Which in no way excuses Tudjman & Co. The Croats are certainly no angels, and they have a lot to answer for, in WWII for example.

Don`t dare to think that I deny crimes committed by my people in the 90s civil war, or on Kosovo. I regret them sincerely and I`m deeply ashamed for every single one of them.

OK, DS, I won't. If you say that, I'll believe you. And it sets you apart from so many Serbs who view themselves endlessly as victims.
If all people in the Balkans were willing to be as self-critical as you obviously are, the situation woud not be as despairing as it is.