Study: Bush led U.S. to war on 'false pretenses'

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: BobbyO [ By 2001 the consensus for the sanctions was eroding.

But those sanctions would have been a far more agreeable alternative to almost everyone involved than the path we chose. That is where diplomacy and leadership should have entered the picture. I will freely admit that there was no easy and simple solution to the problem in Iraq. But all this blovinating about the evil of Sadam and such like is just so much hot air. We did not step in when he used the gas against the Kurds. We did not step in when he was in his frenzied torture and execution stage. That is why, to the average Arab, all our teeth nashing about it in the run up to the war and today comes off as rhetoric aimed at justifying an imperial intervention. These things matter.

Quote by: BobbyO [ Why would a far more primitive Afghanistan been a far more likely standard beaer of democracy in the region. heck, it isn't even in "the region." Its out in the boonies.

Because in truth, Iraq was economically and socially (from a modern perspective) more advanced than most of the Arab world and the average Iraqi was more economically secure. At least, before the war this was true. We took them backwards. In Afghanistan, forward is pretty much the only alternative, especially economically. And in the end, that is how you spread satisfaction with our "way". You make the average citizen more satisfied with their daily existence. The chances of this succeeding were far greater in Afghanistan.

Quote by: BobbyO [ During the buildfup, the issue wasn't ust a question of whether the USA should go in. It was also a defense of the saddam regime. Why wuld that situation have been any better?

Who, in hell, was ever defending Saddam? Maybe I am just missing your point.

Quote by: BobbyO [ But why would crushing Arab freedom fighers have shown the Arab world we were on their side? And as an aside, why does the burden fall only on the west to show they are serious about a real settlement in the mid-east? Are the Arabs true innocents and bystanders in the problems in their own backyards?

Almost nobody in the Arab world viewed the Taliban as freedom fighters. And, moving the point from the side to the center where it belongs, it is our burden because most of the mess in the middle east (most, not all) is the result of the west's geopolitical policies dating from the late colonial period. Who do you think drew the lines in the sand that have Kurds divided up in small pockets, marginalized in multiple states, the people from whom Saladin (Salah al-Din) came. If that means nothing to you, read a little history. The whole idea of those lines was to divide and conquer, so that we could maintain control of resources that we did not own. And yes, the average Arab is truely innocent and a mere bystander to the problems in their own backyards. That is not true of the governments, but it is true of the average Arab, the very people we need to bring to "our side" if we want to end the spiral of violence. Government officials and Muftis are not strapping bombs on and blowing up innocent people.

Quote by: BobbyO [ So supporting governments which fight back against the local crazies are what? puppets of a mad American desire for control? Or an effort to marginalise the crazies?

If it IS an effort to marginalize the "crazies", it is a failing and misguiuded effort. Supporting the Mushariffs of the world may win battles, but it loses wars. It does not make the lives of the people of Pakistan better, it makes him more powerful.

Quote by: BobbyO [ Sure, you demonstrate what a world under the Islamic idiots would be like.

No, you demonstate what a world under imperial wester power is like. It does not win friends and influence people.

Quote by: BobbyO [ The problem here is that this involves a theological debate, and a theological debate within the realm of Islam. I am not so sure that the opinions of Christians will carry much weight.

No, it is purely a quality of daily life equation. If they can feed their families and feel free to partake of their cultural heritage at the same time, we win.

Quote by: BobbyO [ You are assuming that "fighting back" as opposed to "fighting for."

I am not understanding your point here.

Quote by: BobbyO [ I lived across the Hudson in New Jersey on 911. Only me being late to work that day kept me from being on Chambers St when the first plane hit.

I was scheduled to be in in the afternoon. Of course, they were trying to get people out of the area after the event, so I was home watching the coverage all day.

Quote by: BobbyO [ The tactics of the "Islamic idiots" is to strap bombs on people and explode them in crowed markets. Do you think maybe THAT is the problem in Iraq? Do you think maybe those tactics have the effect of turning Iraqis away from its advocates? How come an unfortunate accident which kills some innocent creates a monster, but a deliberate response which kills innocents is okay?

I did not say it was ok, I said our policies are not discouraging this behavior, they are making it more likely.

[/quote]

Quote by: BobbyO [ I am quite sure Bin Laden would prefer to live in a palace than a cave... He cares that he is weaker. And the evidence sseems to suggests that millions of little bin laden's are not being spawned. They are fleeing.

This is an obviously false accusation and a dangerous miscalculation of Bin Laden. If he was interested in living in a palace, he would be living in one today. He was very wealthy and chose to go live in a cave long before he started funding attacks against us. You do not know your enemy.

[xyzer]

thx posts

Where were Saddam's petro dollars banked? Banks in New York and recycled into the U.S. economy, So the U.S. was the one that profited from his petro dollars, until he swicthed to the Euro which are banked in Europe (That's why France and Germany were so against attacking Iraq.). So you're starting to get close, keep digging.

Really? Do you have some evidence of this conspiracy theory? I recall there was a revelation(mostly suppressed) that Kofi Anan and his merry UN friends were taking the oil for medicines handouts.They along with other business men world wide. As if any ot the UN members(including the USA) had any interest in Iran petro dollars when their main market was with Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico and Venezuela?

This nonsense goes along with the myth that the wests past policies in the middle east caused its problems today? Foreign policy is made at the time its needed and is designed to lessen an apparent problem. It's not designed to counter some imagined threat 50 years down the road, is it? The worls is dynamic and new problems and barriers arise?

The major problem in the middle east is Islam and it's crazy hate for Jews, and the Islamic nations propensity to spread its beliefs by threats and force. As well as countenencing and protectring renegade bands of terorists who attack any or all who don't profess beleif in Allah? They don't care if we buy their oil and without it they woild still be riding camels in the deserts?

Thats what history of that religion shows. e.g. in 1948 the UN authorised the partition of Palestine and let the Jews have a small sliver of their so called ancestral lands. Since then its been a constant series of wars aggression and blame for Israel and it friends(real or perceived) History shows thats not new! Islam has been spreading by violence for over a thousand years.

[thx1138]

Really? Do you have some evidence of this conspiracy theory?

The petro dollar cycle is fact just like the U.S. public was threated with a Mushroom cloud over one of its cities (that was fact to remember you had not know about that either).

Petrodollar financial definition of Petrodollar. Petrodollar finance term by the Free Online Dictionary.

Petrodollars The money that oil exporters receive from selling oil and then deposit into Western banks. Notes: Petrodollars refers to the money that Middle Eastern countries and members of OPEC receive as revenue from Western nations and then put back into those same nations' banks. For example if Libya were to receive money from the U.S. for oil and then put the money into a U.S. bank, that deposited money is referred to as petrodollars. Petrodollars are also known as petrocurrency. Deposits by countries that receive dollar revenues from the sale of petroleum to other countries; the term commonly refers to OPEC deposits of dollars in the Eurocurrency market. The funds that are controlled by oil-exporting countries and have been used to pay for oil imports. Petrodollars are a huge pool of funds available for investment and the purchase of goods and services. Although stated in terms of dollars, the term generally refers to all currencies.

As for...

As if any ot the UN members(including the USA) had any interest in Iran petro dollars when their main market was with Saudi Arabia, Canada, Mexico and Venezuela?

You would think the U.S. would just stop buying oil from Iran then if can buy from these other producers. I don't think that's going to happen.. do you?

The major problem in the middle east is Islam and it's crazy hate for Jews, and the Islamic nations propensity to spread its beliefs by threats and force. As well as countenencing and protectring renegade bands of terorists who attack any or all who don't profess beleif in Allah? They don't care if we buy their oil and without it they woild still be riding camels in the deserts?

I think you may have some race relations problems, maybe you should seek some help about this issue.

[rmnunez]

Its not just exagerated bloviations, these are irrelevant, what matters is that after 911 there was less tolerance and intervention in Afghanistan added confidence plus vulnerability.

[Century 25]

Whatever Saddam was.. he had his nasty neighbors bamboozled... they feared him. He was running a major bluff. Iraq wasn't in ruins.. they had power (electric) and running water.. schools, stores, museums and hospitals, and more good roads were being built.. the infrastructure was improving. But now.. EEEEEeeeek..!! And the War is based on a living.. dying.. murderous lie.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Century 25 Whatever Saddam was.. he had his nasty neighbors bamboozled...

I wasn't under this impression. Saddam barely had any control over the entire northern section of Iraq, for example. Yes, Sen. Bob Graham claimed "Saddam Hussein's regime has chemical and biological weapons and is trying to get nuclear capacity," but that was obviously not one of Saddam's "nasty neighbors" speaking.

Grandpa h.

[xyzer]

Check this site thx..Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries
You post..

You would think the U.S. would just stop buying oil from Iran then if can buy from these other producers. I don't think that's going to happen.. do you?

Check the site on who the US buys oil from and then think about it? Do you know what you are talking about? It's happened old friend we already buy 90% or more our imports from countries other than Iran?

Another logical anomaly in your rant?

I think you may have some race relations problems, maybe you should seek some help about this issue

Since when is Islamic faith related to race? By your flawed analogy we could say that someone who criticicised Catholicism was a racist? Is that what you imply?

By the way people who make money(including 'petro dollars) normallu deposit them in Banks in the more stable countries where they can be used to get frurther returns and are safer. In the last several decades where do you think that would be? Kenya, Somalia, or the USA, Canada, Britian, Japan?

[Century 25]

Quote by: grandpa I wasn't under this impression. Saddam barely had any control over the entire northern section of Iraq, for example. Yes, Sen. Bob Graham claimed "Saddam Hussein's regime has chemical and biological weapons and is trying to get nuclear capacity," but that was obviously not one of Saddam's "nasty neighbors" speaking. Grandpa h.

I was intimating along the lines of Iran. Iran believed Saddam had enough weaponry to discourage Iran from getting pushy with Iraq. Since no WMD's were ever found.. it appears that Saddam was mostly bluster.

Iraq's worst enemy was and is Bush.

[rmnunez]

Those oil import figures are more or less what I figured they'd be, Iraq now provides about a fifteenth of the oil the US imports. This is more or less what it was like 5 years ago when they came in at about 7%. But there is that unrealized potential, Iraq could pump much more and perhaps the US would buy it, though I doubt they'd be getting any of it for a penny less than whatever they'd be getting from anyone else. This is why I don't buy "oil greed" as the reason for intervention.

[Century 25]

It has always been about the oil. Bush's syndicate.. Cheney, the CEO of Hallibuton.. Condoleezza Rice (Chevron's "The Condoleezza Rice")

"was a Chevron Director from 1991 until January 15, 2001 when she was transferred by President George Bush Jr. to National Security Adviser. Previously she was Senior Director, Soviet Affairs, National Security Council, and Special Assistant to President George Bush Sr. from 1989 to 1991."

She also served on the board of directors for the Carnegie Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the Chevron Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Rand Corporation, the Transamerica Corporation, and other organizations.

Chevron honored Rice by naming an oil tanker"Condoleezza Rice" after her, but controversy led to its being renamed Altair Voyager.

Cheney was selected to be the Secretary of Defense during the presidency of George H.W. Bush, a position he held for much of Bush's term. In it, Cheney oversaw the 1991 Operation Desert Storm, among others.

Out of office during the Clinton presidency, Cheney was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Halliburton Company from 1995 to 2000.

The stink of oil is heavy upon the Bush syndicate.


.

[thx1138]

Check the site on who the US buys oil from and then think about it? Do you know what you are talking about? It's happened old friend we already buy 90% or more our imports from countries other than Iran?

Shouldn't that be 100% if your country is really serious about sanctions against Iran?

[rmnunez]

It probably should be 100% non-Iranian unless the manner in which oil is traded makes it sometimes difficult for a buyer to know the source (as when purchasing options on future outputs).

[xyzer]

thx..
In 2007 the US imposed sanctions on Iran..U.S. imposes new sanctions on Iran - Iran - MSNBC.com

The Bush administration imposed sweeping new sanctions against Iran Thursday — the harshest in nearly three decades — cutting off key Iranian military and banking institutions from the American financial system for Tehran’s alleged support for terrorism and nuclear weapons ambitions.

So not only is the US not buying Iranian oil, it has shut off the "petro dollars" you are concerned about? I think thats your 100%.

[xyzer]

Give me a break?

She also served on the board of directors for the Carnegie Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the Chevron Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Rand Corporation, the Transamerica Corporation, and other organizations.

Is it logical to assume that because Rice served on the board of directors of Chevron and is thereby tainted thst she wouldn't also have some nefarious interest in screwing up policy about steel production, computers sales,and other interests from the above list? I use an HP computer and also use products made of steel? Should I have reason to worry?

I think these silly conspiracy theories about past business relationships and interests are juvenile. Cheney will never live down his stint in Haliburton which is not specifically an oil company, but is in all sorts of services. Yet Gore's lack of any past interests and jobs in industry was and is forgotten? Kerrys similar lack of any job experience except that of a politician is left unsanswered? Nor is his tendency to commune with an enemy and disparage his country during wartime considered a problem..by those gonzos who throw slanderous accusations against Rice and Cheney, and invent scurrilous conspiracy theories about their motives?

[thx1138]

Quote by: xyzer thx.. In 2007 the US imposed sanctions on Iran..U.S. imposes new sanctions on Iran - Iran - MSNBC.com So not only is the US not buying Iranian oil, it has shut off the "petro dollars" you are concerned about? I think thats your 100%.

Thank god for the Russians, Chinese, and Japanese that are still buying oil from Iran. maybe the the unilateral sanctions have something to do with the oil prices going up? Well enjoy your sanctions the next time you fill up at the pump.

msnbc.com Video Player

[rmnunez]

Major multinationals like to have distinguished figures on their boards, but usually these are just some sort of celebrity endorsement, its not like she'd actually be doing something as a decision-making executive, certainly not on all those boards of directors, she couldn't, there are too many and some are in competition against each other.

The sanctions against Iran are notorious, I remember studying about some that involved Iranian banks and the obligation to respect letters of credit in international transactions. Banking and finance is something Muslims have ethical problems with because some believe Islam forbids earning profits from interest. The general effect has been of poorly managed Muslim government banks which tend to be more about social development than of commercial transactions. This whole outlook handicaps their performance in international markets. Its just like this idea they'll use Euros instead of dollars, a purely political decision that has nothing to do with profitability which ought to be the only consideration in banking and commerce.

[grandpa]

The war is still being run under falsification and omission:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/11/wa...ll&oref=slogin

WASHINGTON — The Army is accustomed to protecting classified information. But when it comes to the planning for the Iraq war, even an unclassified assessment can acquire the status of a state secret. That is what happened to a detailed study of the planning for postwar Iraq prepared for the Army by the RAND Corporation, a federally financed center that conducts research for the military.

Grandpa h.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Banking and finance is something Muslims have ethical problems with because some believe Islam forbids earning profits from interest. The general effect has been of poorly managed Muslim government banks which tend to be more about social development than of commercial transactions.

Oh yeah, this is great. Someone from Mexico telling us how bad banks are in other countries. How many Iranian banks are laundering drug money and paying out phony "bailouts" to political cronies?

[rmnunez]

As a matter of fact there was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal on the number of Iranian banks suspected of money laundering and other irregular transactions. An entire 'suitcase economy' is developing in Iran to skirt the economic sanctions imposed by the US and UN.

What I was noting was how banking and finance presents some singular challenges to Muslims. This is evident in many ways. Muslims customarily purchase gold jewelery as a savings vehicle, bracelets and earrings can then be sold or bartered when cash is needed. This is a practice that hasn't developed as much in other societies because earning interest on savings is accepted. This basic financial principle is at the core of modern banking and antithetical to Islamic beliefs.

[thx1138]

As a matter of fact there was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal on the number of Iranian banks suspected of money laundering and other irregular transactions. An entire 'suitcase economy' is developing in Iran to skirt the economic sanctions imposed by the US and UN.

I live in Japan and the sanctions have not stopped companies here from doing business with Iran. Full page ads in the Daily Yamuori for travel and shipping companies were printed in celebration of the Islamic Revolution appeared for week. People here are still traveling and Iran is still sell oil to Japan as well as China.