Anti-Quran film expected to test the limits of Dutch tolerance

[shrike]

Anti-Quran film expected to test the limits of Dutch tolerance

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - A maverick lawmaker's planned anti-Quran film has the Dutch wrestling with the limits of their centuries-old traditions of tolerance and free speech. It also has the government scrambling to limit potential fallout in the Muslim world if the film is aired ... Wilders says his film _ which he has not yet finished, nobody has seen and is expected to be only about 10 minutes long _ will expose how the Quran fosters intolerance of women and homosexuals and is used by radicals to incite violence. ... Heinz-Christian Strache and Filip Dewinter, leaders of far-right parties in Belgium and Austria, disagree with banning the Quran. «Burning books is always wrong. I respect every religion as long as they don't dabble in politics,» said Strache at an anti-Islamization event in the Belgian city of Antwerp this week that attracted politicians from 15 European cities. De Winter agreed. «Sometimes he (Wilders) goes too far to get attention,» he said. Small and peaceful protests have already started in the Netherlands, with several activists arrested last weekend in Amsterdam for carrying placards fashioned after health warnings on a cigarette pack calling Wilders an extremist and «harmful to Dutch society.

Freedom of Speech Or Freedom of Hate?

[rmnunez]

respect every religion as long as they don't dabble in politics

Islam was founded by Mohammed who was simultaneously a religious, military and political leader. Muslims expect their governments to be devoutly religious, integrate clerical leaders and follow religious guidelines. In Muslim country religious laws are enforced by municipal police.

Other religions don't have these problems. The Christians separated church from state in the Enlightment and in Asia religions are too mystical to be engaged in politics.

[Jack]

...freedom of expression doesn't mean the right to offend,' said Maxime Verhagen, the Foreign Minister, who was in Madrid to attend the Alliance of Civilisations, an international forum aimed at reducing tensions between the Islamic world and the West. In Amsterdam, Rotterdam and other towns with large Muslim populations, imams say they have needed to 'calm down' growing anger in their communities.

(Emphasis added)
Violence fear over Islam film | World | The Observer

Odd, I thought it did.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood (Emphasis added) Violence fear over Islam film | World | The Observer Odd, I thought it did.

Agreed. Especially since practically everything offends someone. I think that there is a limit, (I can think of some extreme cases where I would draw the line) but this certainly doesn't broach that limit.

[another day]

I'm all for it. We can't let our freedoms be repressed by terrorism and extremism. Would this even be an issue if it were an anti-catholic film? Of course not, because the threat of violence wouldn't be an issue.

[Dieval]

It's ok to offend people...

..as long as they're not muslim.

[xyzer]

In Muslim country religious laws are enforced by municipal police.

rm hits the problem squarely! Most other belief systems do not enforce, by violent means, disbelievers to adhere to the tenents of a religion. Islam does! When those who promote the religion make it a state religion the trouble begins. Freedoms and and beliefs of other belief systems are forcibly suppressed and those who disbelieve in the state religion are persecuted! Wierd by western standards?

Why should a nation which tolerates freedom of various beliefs within its secualr laws be so threatened by a religious segment of its population? That defies belief? Why is it even news that someone intends to expose the hypocrisy that is Islam?

[phoenix_fire]

Indeed. Radical Muslims are just too used to getting their way. Forcing the government to enforce an aspect of your belief is a way of forcing non-believers to, in a way, "believe" as you do. It is a kind of forced conversion, at least in part. You are forcing them to agree that your laws and standards are right. Which causes a kind of acknowledgment of the source of those. This is significantly different from, say, the abortion debate. In that case, anti-abortionists believe that preventing the death of a living human being is something that people could generally agree on regardless of religion. The things that radical Muslims try to enforce, on the other hand (no drawing pictures of Mohammed, no making videos that make our religion look bad [even if they're accurate], etc.) are aspects that only mean anything if you happen to be a member of their religion. There is no universal morality being defended here. They are defending an ability to force other people to adhere to what is purely and simply their religion.

[Charlatan]

Wilders says his film _ which he has not yet finished, nobody has seen and is expected to be only about 10 minutes long _ will expose how the Quran fosters intolerance of women and homosexuals and is used by radicals to incite violence.

So people use hate to breed more hate? Well if one bad mood leads to another then that is for sure, all you have to do is integrate the views of your own and make it sound like it is part of the scriptures, then people, very God fearing over there, will do what is best for their families, as it is seen by the majority. People also incluse God in their family, so anything that goes against his word is looking for a bruising if you ask me.

There are set scritptures and then there are trouble makers. WHere does the hate come from. One person I guess, spreading the fire of anger amoung the people, all it takes is one person to start a fire, and then people act like sheep and chant the slightly altered version of the scripture, and that lead to countless incidents. Are these people prone to violence? Not at all, Islam is about love, so they are easily offended by things. What does it take to be easily offended? Fear I suppose, fear that your views will not be recieved by the masses, and this fear leads to twisting the truth, and so on. The fact remains that these people are offended, so there must be a trait of some sort that makes them so. If it is fear that their family may grow up in the wrong then that is a trait for sure, that and making sure you are not in the wrong according to scriptures and God's view, which could be devastating to people over there. It is a very crude insult to say to someone that they are out of line with scriptures, they may think that it is very important most of the time.

So people over there love God, which means they need God in their lives, so they sacrifice everyting else for this love, it is number one to them. Why is this so? The world aroud them is filled with hardship, and securty is high on the list of things that people need, so maybe it is lack of security that makes people look to God for it. People will need to be more relaxed and then security will come naturally, but it is the culture to be so highly strung I guess.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Charlatan So people use hate to breed more hate? Well if one bad mood leads to another then that is for sure, all you have to do is integrate the views of your own and make it sound like it is part of the scriptures, then people, very God fearing over there, will do what is best for their families, as it is seen by the majority.

Anyone who says, "God once told me this personally" is beyond any instant cure.

Grandpa h.

[another day]

Quote by: Charlatan So people use hate to breed more hate? Well if one bad mood leads to another then that is for sure, all you have to do is integrate the views of your own and make it sound like it is part of the scriptures, then people, very God fearing over there, will do what is best for their families, as it is seen by the majority. People also incluse God in their family, so anything that goes against his word is looking for a bruising if you ask me. There are set scritptures and then there are trouble makers. WHere does the hate come from. One person I guess, spreading the fire of anger amoung the people, all it takes is one person to start a fire, and then people act like sheep and chant the slightly altered version of the scripture, and that lead to countless incidents. Are these people prone to violence? Not at all, Islam is about love, so they are easily offended by things. What does it take to be easily offended? Fear I suppose, fear that your views will not be recieved by the masses, and this fear leads to twisting the truth, and so on. The fact remains that these people are offended, so there must be a trait of some sort that makes them so. If it is fear that their family may grow up in the wrong then that is a trait for sure, that and making sure you are not in the wrong according to scriptures and God's view, which could be devastating to people over there. It is a very crude insult to say to someone that they are out of line with scriptures, they may think that it is very important most of the time. So people over there love God, which means they need God in their lives, so they sacrifice everyting else for this love, it is number one to them. Why is this so? The world aroud them is filled with hardship, and securty is high on the list of things that people need, so maybe it is lack of security that makes people look to God for it. People will need to be more relaxed and then security will come naturally, but it is the culture to be so highly strung I guess.

A film analyzing the destructive influences of Islam is not "hate". To say that criticism of anything is equal to hatred is wrong.

As for the comment that Islam is about love? Hardly... It's about submission - some call that love, but that's a butchery of what love really means.

[sevendogs]

Unfortunately, we do not have anti-quoran and anti-bible movies here, in USA. They would help to enhance tolerance and cool down religious fervor in this country.

[rmnunez]

Anti religious films abound in the west, particularly anti Catholic films. Sometimes bishops will denounce these movies, but usually they are just discretely discouraged. There is no Catholic edict comparable to a fatwah against any actor or director for some particularly offensive film (and there have been many).

Islam is quite different. The first notable difference is a preclusion against any depiction of the human form (or even animals according to the more orthodox) -this is why they developed those arabesques and stylized geometric plant motifs.

Another distinctly Muslim feature is this intolerance for anything different from their religion. This is a feature of all Muslims everywhere, there are isolated (and repudiated) communities which are more tolerant (the Bahai and Sufis) but these are the most suppressed practices by other Muslims.

And finally there's the integration of church and state across the Muslim world. In Iran its at an extreme (as it once was in Afghanistan) where the clergy actually governs. But in the average Muslim country clerics have a lot of power and exert influence in all levels of government to the point where religious laws are enforced through the mechanisms of state. This would be like a policeman arresting someone Catholic and a judge sentencing them for having divorced (since its forbidden for Catholics to do so).

An aggravating factor is the level of intromision religious law has in Islam. While Catholics (the most regulated of Christians with their Canon Law) have some basic rules for rituals, under Islam what one eats, drinks, wears, may see or hear is also regulated.

In Saudi Arabia its forbidden for a anyone to outwardly display any religious medals or a crucifix. No churches or temples besides Mosques may be built. In Indonesia they confiscate all bibles found in a person's luggage. People have been deported from Gulf states for diplaying a Christmas tree!

[phoenix_fire]

Unfortunately, we do not have anti-quoran and anti-bible movies here, in USA. They would help to enhance tolerance and cool down religious fervor in this country.

How do you figure?

A.) There are documentaries and such that claim to discredit the Bible all the time. What about Jesus Camp? What about people in the movies and such that disrespect God? Happens all the time.

B.) Anti-religious propaganda just tends to stir up the religious-minded. It always does and has. And then the opposition retaliates. Such things do anything but "enhance tolerance and cool down religious fervor". If you think your faith is being persecuted, you get all the more "fervent". People don't tend to take assaults on their holy beliefs lying down.

[GHook93]

Quote by: sevendogs Unfortunately, we do not have anti-quoran and anti-bible movies here, in USA. They would help to enhance tolerance and cool down religious fervor in this country.

Maybe not anti-koran, but the we have anti-bible movies!

[sevendogs]

Are we going to submit Muslim's terrorism? We have to fight them by real weapons and by words. Shoot them at the spot.

[phoenix_fire]

What many in the US had failed to realize is that you have to win the propaganda war before you can engage in the actual war. Most people don't actually know what the Qur'an says. You have people on one side that say that it incites violence, and you have people on the other side that says it's about nothing but love and rainbows and flowers. People in non-Muslim countries just take a side based on their gut and not on actually going and reading the darned thing themselves. A scholarly review of its contents may go a long way to helping non-Muslim countries make a more informed decision...if that review is objective, that is.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: shrike Anti-Quran film expected to test the limits of Dutch tolerance Freedom of Speech Or Freedom of Hate?

Both.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: sevendogs Unfortunately, we do not have anti-quoran and anti-bible movies here, in USA. They would help to enhance tolerance and cool down religious fervor in this country.

How the hell does anti-anything "enhance tolerance"??????? That has got to be one of the most idiotic statements anyone has ever made on Volconvo (no insult to actual idiots intended).

Tolerance must be tolerance for all or it is not tolerance!

Of course, why anyone would be willing to settle for mere "tolerance" (meaning to tolerate, to put up with), I don't know.

[another day]

Tolerance does not entail a lack of criticism. It means you tolerate it, put up with it. It doesn't mean you embrace it, or love it. If you were to go around assaulting muslims and harassing them and spraying slogans on their houses, that would be a lack of tolerance.