Sitting Bull's people break away from US

[xyzer]

No question zee the 1800s were a dismal period in US History. Excused only by the fact that the new country aquired vast stretches of land and didn't have the means to control the expansion into them. When the western Indians fought to retain their way of life they were rounded up and put on reservations thus inhibiting assimilation into the mainstream.
That was then, this is now. Why do we maintain this system? .

[grandpa]

Quote by: xyzer No question zee the 1800s were a dismal period in US History. Excused only by the fact that the new country aquired vast stretches of land and didn't have the means to control the expansion into them.

"Acquired" is one way to put. Yes, it just fell into Anglo hands.

Grandpa h.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I'm addressing your desire to dictate conditions to a culture older than your own, that pre-existed your nation, and your laws in the land you now occupy.

hahahahahahaha that's funny. So by your rationale, no one can "dictate" anything unless they were there first? Given the fluidity of cultures and people, at what point in time do we "fix" that and say that all cultures are geographically fixed and can no longer overtake any others???

Furthermore, you show your ignorance of the actual conditions on so-called "reservations". The culture that exists on "reservations" today bears no resemblance to anything that predates the United States. Where minor nods to "tribal" influences exist, they are focused on crude stereotypes that usually do not reflect their tribal heritage. For example, the so-called "dreamcatchers" found for sale on almost every reservation, despite the fact that they were exclusively an Algonquin (Chippewa, actuall) item. Iroquois in reservations near me sell Navajo-style blankets and have murals showing tee-pees.

If these tribes wanted to live on original tribal lands and live in the way that their ancestors did - the point of the reservations, I would have no problem with the reservation system (indeed, I have advocated for similar treatment for the old order Amish in Pennsylvania). But I see no reason to grant them this latitude and sovereignty just so they can run casinos and smuggle drugs and generally flaunt their special circumstances.

Why should they have to assimilate?

They don't HAVE to assimilate, but if they want success, that is the best avenue.

And frankly, if they want to continue receiving the advantages that having a reservation grants them, they need to exhibit some reason for having it, i.e. to preserve their pre-U.S. culture.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Furthermore, you show your ignorance of the actual conditions on so-called "reservations". The culture that exists on "reservations" today bears no resemblance to anything that predates the United States.

One might say the same of the culture in the U.S. compared with back when we conquered the tribes and started the reservation system. 200, 300, even not much more tha 100 years ago our culture was quite different. I'm not sure, if we could raise an ancestor from the grave, what he would think of the Seneca Nation, for example. But I'm not sure it would be all that different compared to what Custer or his men would think.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Or they'll simply be ignored like they've typically been. Somethings aren't big deals unless both parties accept them as big deals.

Yes, ignore them as an insignificant nuisance.

I take it you're unfamiliar with dual citizenship?

There are very few circumstances under which the United States recognizes dual citizenship.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Ken Carman Then we should end the reservation system... they sink or swim just like any other immigrant group (that would be "funny," if it absolutely wasn't) or live on the streets like the rest of the "bums." No, I'm not advocating any of that. But the mere existence of the reservations proves that they're not just citizens, and not just another group of nations, but treated as whatever when it suits our convenience. Though I cite it occasionally, I'm not really a big fan of Wiki. Too many editors.

Yes, they should end the reservation system and give these people the choice of either assimilating or emigrating to another country (where they will also likely be expected to assimilate).

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: tivodan1116 hahahahahahaha that's funny. So by your rationale, no one can "dictate" anything unless they were there first? Given the fluidity of cultures and people, at what point in time do we "fix" that and say that all cultures are geographically fixed and can no longer overtake any others???

Misunderstanding at that level is an art form, and you are an artist of unmatched talent in this area.

Quote by: tivodan1116 Furthermore, you show your ignorance of the actual conditions on so-called "reservations". The culture that exists on "reservations" today bears no resemblance to anything that predates the United States. Where minor nods to "tribal" influences exist, they are focused on crude stereotypes that usually do not reflect their tribal heritage. For example, the so-called "dreamcatchers" found for sale on almost every reservation, despite the fact that they were exclusively an Algonquin (Chippewa, actuall) item. Iroquois in reservations near me sell Navajo-style blankets and have murals showing tee-pees.

What does that have to do with self determination?

Quote by: tivodan1116 If these tribes wanted to live on original tribal lands and live in the way that their ancestors did - the point of the reservations, I would have no problem with the reservation system (indeed, I have advocated for similar treatment for the old order Amish in Pennsylvania). But I see no reason to grant them this latitude and sovereignty just so they can run casinos and smuggle drugs and generally flaunt their special circumstances.

Oh, so you're not inclined to "grant" them the freedon to live as they so choose.


That's what I was attempting to do, out you as an elitists.


Mission accomplished.

Quote by: tivodan1116 They don't HAVE to assimilate, but if they want success, that is the best avenue. And frankly, if they want to continue receiving the advantages that having a reservation grants them, they need to exhibit some reason for having it, i.e. to preserve their pre-U.S. culture.

Again, that just sounds like somebody that wants to dictate terms for others to follow.

[Suburbanite]

tivoden i think you missing class when they explained what sovereignty was and how it works. what you're saying is "they are free to do as they want, so long as what they want is what we want"
C'mon, have a heart.