Red Cross demands Mid-East action

[Nono]

Quote by: GHook Get your facts straight!

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. Is what I said untrue? Funny, must have halluninated it.

Like shrike, your a black/white fanatic. How lazy and unadventurous of you. Sad.

And yes, G, 10% is a lot when so many people over your way automatically assume that all Arabs are Muslims. What did you think I meant, 49% or something?

And yes, the really big Christian-Arab communities are naturally in the West Bank. So what?

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart "Anti-Jewish Jews" (...) are, in fact, a very small but vocal minority of anti-Zionist orthodox fundamentalists who have unwittingly become a stalking horse for anti-semites who wish to cover their bigotry and sound 'reasonable'. They are the equivalent of the Civil Rights 'moderates' in America, back in the 50's and 60's, who tried to turn Martin Luther King jr. from his course of civil disobedience, for fear it would alienate whites from the long term goal of black assimilation. Likewise, Zionism would alienate Europe and others from the assimilation of Jews. Alas, for those Jews who vowed "Never Again!", assimilation just isn't good enough.

Actually I wasn't referring to the anti-Zionist fundamentalists. I'd say they're "anti-Zionist". But why on earth "anti-Jewish", even if they do serve to muddy the waters? (I wouldn't agree with "stalking horse" either.)

No. I'm talking about Jews (the peace camp in Israel or Jews in other countries who speak out against settlement policies and conditions in the territories). They're a real problem for Israeli propagandists. I mean, I'm not Jewish, so if I criticize Israel they'll just toss me into the same basket as Vladimir Zhirinovsky or Saddam Hussein. Easy.

But what about someone like Noam Chomsky? Tricky that. But wait! We'll invent some psycho-babble about "self-hating Jews". That way we basically write off any criticism from Jews as the ravings of people with a pyschological problem. Hell, it's so easy. Yes, he's Jewish, but he's uhh, a little sick, been exposed to anti-Semitism for so long he's rejected his own identity, like black people who get their hair straightened and take skin-lightening treatment.

So I'm gonna sit back and wait for shrike and GHook to burst back and explain to us what a dangerous nut Noam Chomsky is. I guess I should have chosen a less controversial example (Uri Avnery for example -- Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc), but what the hell, Chomsky'll do.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. Is what I said untrue? Funny, must have halluninated it.

You seem to do this alot!

Like shrike, your a black/white fanatic. How lazy and unadventurous of you. Sad.

Pot to calling the kettle black, huh?

And yes, G, 10% is a lot when so many people over your way automatically assume that all Arabs are Muslims. What did you think I meant, 49% or something?

Well 90%+ are Sunni Muslims so alot seems far fetched!

And yes, the really big Christian-Arab communities are naturally in the West Bank. So what?

Well all the terrorist attacks and missile launching campaigns are coming from Gaza which is nearly 100% Sunni Muslim, I would say it does make a difference!

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono So I'm gonna sit back and wait for shrike and GHook to burst back and explain to us what a dangerous nut Noam Chomsky is. I guess I should have chosen a less controversial example (Uri Avnery for example -- Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc), but what the hell, Chomsky'll do.

Chomsky has the same "victim" defeatist mentality that the far-left 9/11 truthers have. Which is basically, "If I irrationally start agreeing with the enemy and take their side, then they will leave us alone." Not going to work no matter how many times you tell yourself this. He is the worst type of anti-semite of them all - the self-hating anti-semite! Just as the far left 9/11 truthers are the worst type of anti-Americans - the self hating anti-americans!

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono But what about someone like Noam Chomsky? Tricky that. But wait! We'll invent some psycho-babble about "self-hating Jews". That way we basically write off any criticism from Jews as the ravings of people with a pyschological problem. Hell, it's so easy. Yes, he's Jewish, but he's uhh, a little sick, been exposed to anti-Semitism for so long he's rejected his own identity, like black people who get their hair straightened and take skin-lightening treatment.

Well I'm a fan of Chomsky's, Nono... sorta. I've listened to his lectures on tape and he's a skilled rabble rouser who's fun to listen to. But he's definitely a far, far left gadfly whose opinions I take with a grain of salt.

So having said that, methinks you and I are not that far apart, but it's that small space that's so close, yet so far.

You believe that before peace can be achieved, Israel has to reclaim all the moral high ground, make pre-emptive political sacrifices and achieve perfection before it has any right to complain, while the Palestinians get a moral pass because they've been the perpetual suffering victims, whether or not they brought it upon themselves.

I believe the Israelis have been driven from the moral high ground by 50 years of constant and vicious aggression against them, and that it's up to the Palestinians -- AND their Arab puppeteers -- to finally accept Israel as a reality and to prove they mean it by making pre-emptive peace. Then, if the Palestinians still feel unfairly discriminated against, to take the moral high ground themselves through a campaign of peaceful civil disobedience, rather than guerrilla warfare.

Alas, given the apparent Arab/Moslem cultural imperatives regarding honor/revenge/etc., that might be difficult for them.

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[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Chomsky has the same "victim" defeatist mentality that the far-left 9/11 truthers have. Which is basically, "If I irrationally start agreeing with the enemy and take their side, then they will leave us alone."

First, your remark about Chomsky being anti-semitic is a lie. Second, your labelling him as "far-left" is simply a diversion tactic, as is bringing up "9-11 truthers." Third, you are grossly simplifying and misrepresenting Chomsky's basic argument. Nowhere has he said we must "agree" with al-Qaeda or any Islamic terrorist organization. In fact, that's why he sensibly spoke against the support America gave to the radical Islamic Mujahideen (also, he condemned the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the Soviet Union quite generally, so he didn't play the "lesser of two evils game"). Chomsky is not dishonest enough to regard 9-11 as some kind of historical cut-off point, or pretend that the US (and Britain, France, Germany and others) were "leaving the Middle East alone" until a certain day. These countries were all very heavily involved, as anyone with a hint of integrity would note and regard as a key source of problems in the region.

You are not alone in lying about such positions, of course. And we'll likely see disastrous consequences because many are unwilling to look at the facts and draw what you'd call "far-left" conclusions from them.

Grandpa h.

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart Well I'm a fan of Chomsky's, Nono... sorta. I've listened to his lectures on tape and he's a skilled rabble rouser who's fun to listen to. But he's definitely a far, far left gadfly whose opinions I take with a grain of salt.

Well I'd cast Chomsky in a far more positive light, though he does have rabble-rousing proclivities, i.e. he's a polemicist. Big deal. I also think he's bang on about a lot of things. Nobod'y perfect.

Which bring us to your next point:

You believe that before peace can be achieved, Israel has to reclaim all the moral high ground, make pre-emptive political sacrifices and achieve perfection before it has any right to complain, while the Palestinians get a moral pass because they've been the perpetual suffering victims, whether or not they brought it upon themselves.

I'd say that's a highly tendentious, reductio-ad-absurdum portrayal of my view. (In fact, Sonart, it smacks a bit of your description of Chomsky.)

1) Israel claims with breast-beating frequency to be solidly ensconced on the moral high ground. In fact, to most of its supporters as evidenced on this forum, it's simply impossible that it could be anywhere else, under any circs whatever.
But yeah, Israel claims to be a Western democracy that desires nothing but peace. Well, let's start seeing a little something to back that up.

2) As for pre-emptive political sacrifices, really I have more confidence in the Israeli public than you seem to have. I bet most people are tired of watching their politicians get jerked around by the nutcase/settlements lobby, and would welcome a clear land-for-peace policy announcement, and reward its framers. (Though Israel's constitution is an obstacle, facilitating as it does results in which the tail wags the dog.)

3) Achieve perfection, hmm? As if it was just a tad shy of perfection and here I am splitting hairs. Was the mass indiscriminate killing of civilians in Lebanon a year and a half ago evidence of slight imperfection? No, that was Goliath, not David. So give me a break with this just-how-perfect-does-it-have-to-get garbage.

4) Give the Palestinians a moral pass, eh? It's unfortunate that the ferocity of the pro-Israel contingent on Volconvo has me mostly playing the critic of Zionism. You should hear me argue it the other way.

What the Palestinians are above all is weak. And what the Israelis are above all is militarily mighty. Big time.

Both sides have a terrific victim complex. Both sides are endlessly self-righteous. Both sides make me sick.

But one side causes a lot more suffereing than the other thanks to unchallengeable power that comes from the unconditional support of Sugar Daddy in Washington.

"The Palestinians" indeed. The average Palestinian has his hands full just scraping by, when he isn't dodging missiles or artillery shells.

This is huge blind spot on your part, Sonart. If you had to live in his shoes, you'd be singing a far different tune.

[shrike]

Quote by: Nono Well, shrike little buddy, you'll never know till you try, will you?

It was already tried many times and every time Israeli citizens received new cycle of violence.

And there's another Israeli tactic. It's the old we-live-in-a-tough-neighbourhood-ya-know argument. It boils down to this -- We're a democracy run according to the rule of law, but unlike you we don't have to observe the same niceties as you soft Europeans. Because we're surrounded by screaming savages here.

It's a giant lazy cop-out. Either you belong to the group of law-abiding nations or you don't. You can't have it both ways.[/quote]
Israel abide international law.I want to point that law can be interpreted in various ways.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Nono 2) As for pre-emptive political sacrifices, really I have more confidence in the Israeli public than you seem to have. I bet most people are tired of watching their politicians get jerked around by the nutcase/settlements lobby, and would welcome a clear land-for-peace policy announcement, and reward its framers.

One can hope... but remember it was the Israeli public that elected Netanyahu to bring stability after the Rabin heartbreak, then compromised with Barak, only to throw him out and elect Sharon following Arafat's betrayal of the peace process. And then they elected Sharon AGAIN, followed by his party protoge, Olmert.

Quote by: Nono 3) Achieve perfection, hmm? As if it was just a tad shy of perfection and here I am splitting hairs. Was the mass indiscriminate killing of civilians in Lebanon a year and a half ago evidence of slight imperfection?

Lebanon is the same sort of rock and a hard place that Iraq is for us... but more justified. What does one do when militants insist on firing rockets at your civilian citizens from across sovereign borders?

What would you do, Nono????

The Israeli military made the same mistake ours did, thinking they could walk in with their overwhelming shock and awe and root out the bad guys without too may civilians casualties. The Isrealis found out the hard way, as we did, that they really couldn't and cut the operation short to prevent further bloodshed... knowing they were giving Hezbollah a political victory. Indeed, it's not perfection, but it's a step further up on the moral high ground than I've seen coming from the Palestinian side.

Quote by: Nono You should hear me argue it the other way.

Yes... I'd like to see that.

Actually, I can probably sympathize... being a child of th 60's, I used to get in political trouble with my parents, specifically my mom. Her world was completely right wing black and white, so when the Black Panthers, or the Peace Marchers, or any radical element to the left of Richard Nixon would make headlines, she'd go of on a tear, accusing them of everything from father-raping to mother-stabbing. And being a snotty liberal teenager, this would drive me nuts, even if I didn't actually support the targets of her wrath. It was just that, by god, if you're going to oppose someone, the least you can do is oppose them for the right reasons.

So I would try to explain WHY the bad guys of the moment were actiig as they were... not DEFEND them, mind you, but simply bring her back to earth regarding whom she was opposing. Of course this went well past her and all she knew was that I was taking there side, therefore I had to be a godless commie-loving father-raping mother-stabber too.

Little wonder I ran off to Hawaii 5 years out of High School.

Quote by: Nono But one side causes a lot more suffereing than the other thanks to unchallengeable power that comes from the unconditional support of Sugar Daddy in Washington.

Again, who's fault is that? Allah Akbar, God is Great... it is God's will. I'm sorry, but God is telling the Palestinians that what they're doing isn't working. Try something else.

I'm reminded of a friend of mine and his headstrong young son. At the dinner table, the son began poking his finger in the mashed potatoes. "Stop that." the father warned. Out of shear willful rebellion, the young boy jutted out his chin and poked the potatoes. His father warmed him again... the son poked again. "Stop that or I'll smack your hand." The young son immediately poked the potatoes. "I mean it, I'll smack your hand, so stop." Poke, poke. "I really, really mean it... now stop it, okay?" Poke, poke.

Finally my friend had to back up his threat, so he grabbed his sons hand and give it a slap. And... through tears of anger and pain ...the son stared at his father... and poked the potatoes again.

So yes, the son was suffering far worse than his much stronger father... but he can't keep poking the potatoes, and as long as he continues, he's going to suffer.

Quote by: Nono "The Palestinians" indeed. The average Palestinian has his hands full just scraping by, when he isn't dodging missiles or artillery shells.

It's certainly not the first time in history that the innocent have suffered for the sins of their leaders. Compare the suffering of the Palestinians to that of the innocent Japanese and German civilians towards the end of WWII. To Americans, it was a shame, but whaddaya gonna do? Blame their leaders for bringing it upon them.

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[Nono]

Quote by: shrike Israel abide international law.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (which, as I think I pointed out above, has a mandate from the entire international community to monitor compliance with the law of war) sure doesn't think so.

Maybe you should send them a telegram to set them straight.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono The International Committee of the Red Cross (which, as I think I pointed out above, has a mandate from the entire international community to monitor compliance with the law of war) sure doesn't think so.

Why should Israel care for enemy civilians? Every government should care first off all about its own citizens .Israel have a full right not allow anything from its borders. They have open border with Egypt also if they can smuggle weapons they can smuggle other things. But it seems they don't want to.

[shrike]

entire international community to monitor compliance with the law of war

Could you cite specific law of war that Israel broken with the quote of course.

[Nono]

What's the matter with you, shrike? Blind? I've done precisely that service for you personally many times in the past. It's like saying "OK, I dare you to tell me, specifically, whether gravity pulls things up, or down."

But just to show you what a patient person I am, here, just for example, is one: Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention "(...) The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.(...)"

That is just one example.

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart ... the Rabin heartbreak ...

You mean the foam-at-mouth/settlers-fascist-lobby crime, I believe.
Let's call a spade a spade here.

The Israeli military made the same mistake ours did, thinking they could walk in with their overwhelming shock and awe and root out the bad guys without too may civilians casualties.

They thought nothing of the sort. They knew very well that they were using cluster munitions that were not only inherently unreliable but also largely well past their use-by date. In other words, they knew they'd be killing plenty of innocents. But hey, they're only Arabs, not real people like them and their families.

The Isrealis found out the hard way, as we did, that they really couldn't and cut the operation short to prevent further bloodshed... knowing they were giving Hezbollah a political victory.

Gosh, they shoulda asked me, poor fools. I would have told them.

What would you do, Nono????

Well in the short term I'd send my infantry / special forces boys across to deal with the missile sites as they found them. In other words, I'd let them do the dying (their profession after all) rather than innocent Lebanese civilians. This unlike the cowardly Israeli response of 2006.

Otherwise I'd pull the political rug out from under Hezbollah by declaring my willingness to clear the West Bank of settlements and do an honest deal on everything from water resources to the status of East Jerusalem, i.e. land for peace, i.e. the Geneva Initiative .

But the people who run Israel don't want to pull the political rug out from under Hezbollah or other nutty entities. Like Reagan and Brezhnev, both sides have a sick symbiotic relationship. It goes like this: You commit your outrages against my people and I'll commit mine against yours. That way we can both enjoy a long reign in power.

Lastly, your comparison of Palestinians with German and Japanese civilians is pure, specious sophistry. There's a whole different way out of this mess (see above) that you must be engaging in wild mental contortions to ignore.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono But just to show you what a patient person I am, here, just for example, is one: Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention "(...) The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.(...)"

Israel is not occupying Gaza. Anyway Israel is not deported or transferred anyone to Gaza strip.
So let’s see some real law infringement.

What's the matter with you, shrike? Blind? I've done precisely that service for you personally many times in the past. It's like saying "OK, I dare you to tell me, specifically, whether gravity pulls things up, or down."

You didn't prove anything every time I disproved you claims.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike You didn't prove anything every time I disproved you claims.

Just as I couldn't "prove" the law of gravity to you if you chose not to believe it.

Once again you're making a fool of yourself, shrike.

[shrike]

Quote by: Nono You mean the foam-at-mouth/settlers-fascist-lobby crime, I believe. Let's call a spade a spade here.

Only he wasn’t a settler. But what facts matter to you anyway?

They thought nothing of the sort. They knew very well that they were using cluster munitions that were not only inherently unreliable but also largely well past their use-by date. In other words, they knew they'd be killing plenty of innocents. But hey, they're only Arabs, not real people like them and their families.

First of all cluster bombs are legal in field of war .Second as far as I know it out of date ammunition is not allowed to use even in trainings.

[shrike]

Quote by: Nono Just as I couldn't "prove" the law of gravity to you if you chose not to believe it. Once again you're making a fool of yourself, shrike.

Its nice you didn't answered my arguements.Its probably becouse you have nothing to answer.

[Nono]

See above, sonny.

[shrike]

See above, sonny.

Whatever you say. I understand that your dogma that Israel is guilty and doesn’t matter what proof I will bring to you.