Red Cross demands Mid-East action

[Nono]

Quote by: Charlatan I have bnever heard of a country being forced to do anything by a law.

Here's an example (published just hours ago): BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Japan changes track on whaling

There are international rules regarding whaling. Japan doesn't like them. But it has been forced to knuckle under by international pressure.

What is a law? In your country and mine, it's the expression of how most people in our community think we should conduct ourselves.
But a lot of people won't obey the law unless it's enforced.

Things are no different in the international community, except that there is quite an enforcement problem.
Nevertheless, in this example Japan has been forced to conform to the international standard of conduct.

So if you refer to a international law, 'might makes right.'

To some extent that's also the case in our nation states (in South Africa, see Winnie Mandela for example -- in the US, see practically anyone with big bucks to hire sharp lawyers).

Might-makes-right is a huge problem, no kidding
But to claim that there's no such thing as international law is absurd.

[Nono]

Quote by: Charlatan What is the point of attacking a powerless enemy when the powerful are out of reach?

The "powerless enemy" being Israel??! (Or have I misunderstood your post?) Gimme a break!

Their motivation for killing Jews is about ethnic cleansing.

Again, your post is not terribly transparent. "Their" refers to Hamas, I'm assuming. Yes, they don't want Jews around, that's true. And they probably aren't too crazy about Christians either (and many Palestinians are Christians).

But by far the main example of ethnic cleansing in Israel/Palestine in recent history has been Jews kicking Arabs out. Not the other way around.*

So you should check your facts before making such sweeping statements.

(* The Israeli government eventually reversed this in the Gaza Strip, a tiny and undesirable piece of real estate that they have by the balls anyway.)

[shrike]

Quote by: nono But by far the main example of ethnic cleansing in Israel/Palestine in recent history has been Jews kicking Arabs out. Not the other way around.*

It nice that you forgot Jewish exodus from Arab Lands. But it was totally expected

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and in peaks following other wars. Estimates place at 856,000 the number of Jewish residents who have fled their homes in Arab lands since 1948, leaving behind property valued today at more than $300 billion.[1][2]

Jewish exodus from Arab lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Nono]

shrike, ol' sweetie, if you'll take a second to actually read the bit you quote from me, you'll notice that I said "in Israel/Palestine". Thus, the expulsion to which you refer doesn't apply to this discussion, just as historical examples of ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, Poland, North America (or wherever) don't apply to it.

Do kindly try to stay on topic, shrike.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono shrike, ol' sweetie, if you'll take a second to actually read the bit you quote from me, you'll notice that I said "in Israel/Palestine

Of course it does apply because it was caused by the conflict and this countries attacked Israel in the Independence war
Did you read the link?

Quote by: wiki In the wake of the November 29, 1947 U.N. Partition vote, demonstrations against the vote in the Arab world were called for December 2-5. The first two days of demonstrations in Bahrain saw little direct actions against Jews, aside from some stone throwing, but on December 5 mobs in the capital of Manama looted Jewish homes and shops, destroyed the synagogue, and beat any Jews they could find, though they only managed to kill one elderly woman.[49]

[Nono]

Look, shrike, if we start citing all the nasty things that both sides have done to each other (which you do endlessly, but in a totally one-sided manner), we'll spend all day not dealing with the essential point -- that a group of people came to what is now Israel and the territories controlled by it and booted out huge numbers of the residents.

The Palestinians aren't responsible for what the Yemeni government, say, has done to its Jewish citizens.

If you want to launch a thread about historical injustice done to Jews in Europe, Africa or Asia (or the US, when you think about it) then do so. I'll support you.

In the meantime, do let's try to stay on topic.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono Look, shrike, if we start citing all the nasty things that both sides have done to each other (which you do endlessly, but in a totally one-sided manner), we'll spend all day not dealing with the essential point --

Isn't it was you who put all the blame on the Jews and claimed that what happened in 1948 was the only exodus in the conflict.

that a group of people came to what is now Israel and the territories controlled by it and booted out huge numbers of the residents.

Again Palestinian propaganda. There were no plan and no intention to expel Arabs. Hadn’t the Arab started the war there would be no problem of Palestinian refuges and there would be another Arab state today.

The Palestinians aren't responsible for what the Yemeni government, say, has done to its Jewish citizens.

Of course they do they asked for their help and received it gladly. So all the Arab countries are part of the conflict.

If you want to launch a thread about historical injustice done to Jews in Europe, Africa or Asia (or the US, when you think about it) then do so. I'll support you.

Europe didn't sent forces to participate in I/P confilct though Britain assisted Arabs and British officers took a part in the conflict.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike Isn't it was you who put all the blame on the Jews ... .

No. Really, you should try reading other people's posts some time.

Palestinian propaganda

(rolls eyes) All information that portrays Israel as anything but an innocent victim is Palestinian propaganda, I know.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono No. Really, you should try reading other people's posts some time.

Yes I read it.You claimed "But by far the main example of ethnic cleansing in Israel/Palestine in recent history has been Jews kicking Arabs out. Not the other way around.*"
And I disapproved you false claim. No one deny that there atrocities from both sides of the conflict but one thing for sure at least from Israeli side it was never sanctioned or given any approval from the government.

(rolls eyes) All information that portrays Israel as anything but an innocent victim is Palestinian propaganda, I know.

No but the notion about intentional transfer of Arabs in 1948 is Palestinian propaganda there is no other way to describe it.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike ... you false claim ...

Jeez, what crap.
shrike, I defy you to come with any evidence that my "claim" is false.

In the meantime, here's an eye-witness account of how a lot of your trouble got started: 1967: A Personal Testimony (by Uri Avnery) - Media Monitors Network (MMN)

[shrike]

Quote by: Nono Jeez, what crap. shrike, I defy you to come with any evidence that my "claim" is false

I already provided information about Jewish exodus and the Arab was not the only one like you falsely claimed

In the meantime, here's an eye-witness account of how a lot of your trouble got started: 1967: A Personal Testimony (by Uri Avnery) - Media Monitors Network (MMN)

Well I see that you subscribe to propaganda of Israeli William Joyse...well I don't.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike ...well I don't.

What you do, shrike, is steadfastly view any and every criticism of Israeli policy as a racist attack on the Jews as a people.

Did you ever stop to consider how robotic this attitude is?

[shrike]

Quote by: nono is steadfastly view any and every criticism of Israeli policy as a racist attack on the Jews as a people.

Nice red herring and straw man .Where did I said anything about racism?

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Nono Again, your post is not terribly transparent. "Their" refers to Hamas, I'm assuming. Yes, they don't want Jews around, that's true. And they probably aren't too crazy about Christians either (and many Palestinians are Christians). But by far the main example of ethnic cleansing in Israel/Palestine in recent history has been Jews kicking Arabs out. Not the other way around.*

Nono, I don't absolve Israel of anything, but the only reason this is so is that Israel's enemies efforts to "cleanse" Israel have been unsuccessful, and it's their most dramatic "ethnic cleansing" failures -- four failed wars of annihilation and 30 years of Arab sponsored terrorism -- have provided Israel their "ethnic cleansing" successes.

It's that attitude of Hamas', their refusal to accept Israel, that's at the heart of EVERYTHING, and has been since the creation of Israel. Until that changes, nothing else can, nor would you or I disagree if we were in Israel's shoes. As long as Hamas et al feel obliged to remain in a constant state of war against Israel, their people will suffer in the losing of that war, no different than the unimaginable suffering of the Japanese and German people at the end of WWII, which we so righteously justified.

Quote by: Nono What you do, shrike, is steadfastly view any and every criticism of Israeli policy as a racist attack on the Jews as a people.

An unfortunate consequence of the fact that a great deal of it is.

And you've seen it right here on this board, haven't you.

.

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart It's that attitude of Hamas', their refusal to accept Israel, that's at the heart of EVERYTHING, and has been since the creation of Israel. Until that changes, nothing else can, nor would you or I disagree if we were in Israel's shoes. As long as Hamas et al feel obliged to remain in a constant state of war against Israel, their people will suffer in the losing of that war.

I know what you mean, and you better believe that I, for my part, don't absolve Hamas of anything. And I agree Hamas is a sort of caricature of the Arab rejectionist position.

However, for all the hardening of positions over the past 15 years, I believe (hope, anyway) that if Israel tomorrow announced that it was offering a deal along the lines of Geneva Initiative (what any agreement will eventually look like, after more or less blood has flowed under the ol' bridge), Hamas and its ranting/racist views would simply be discarded by the populace, which elected them because Arafat's gang were so corrupt and because they were so fed up with general paralysis.

An unfortunate consequence of the fact that a great deal of it is.

Depends what you mean by "great deal". It definitely is extremely convenient for the Israelis to have opponents who foam at the mouth. But it's also convenient to be able to write off any and all criticism as anti-Jewish, and when it comes from Jews as the ravings of "anti-Jewish Jews".

A "great deal" of the views regularly expressed in US opinion polls is the sort of yahoo/redneck garbage that featured in Mississippi Burning.
So you'll doubtless forgive me for systematically ignoring everything any American says, eh?

[shrike]

Quote by: nono Hamas and its ranting/racist views would simply be discarded by the populace, which elected them because Arafat's gang were so corrupt and because they were so fed up with general paralysis.

I think you too optimistic its Middle East not Switzerland.

[Nono]

Well, shrike little buddy, you'll never know till you try, will you?

And there's another Israeli tactic. It's the old we-live-in-a-tough-neighbourhood-ya-know argument. It boils down to this -- We're a democracy run according to the rule of law, but unlike you we don't have to observe the same niceties as you soft Europeans. Because we're surrounded by screaming savages here.

It's a giant lazy cop-out. Either you belong to the group of law-abiding nations or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Nono Depends what you mean by "great deal". It definitely is extremely convenient for the Israelis to have opponents who foam at the mouth. But it's also convenient to be able to write off any and all criticism as anti-Jewish, and when it comes from Jews as the ravings of "anti-Jewish Jews".

That's the challenge, isn't it. When you have folks like Lasher and Wol on this board, who don't even try to hide their rabid anti-semitism, how do you dismiss the possibility of more covert anti-semitism being present in other arguments? It's really tough. And as far as "anti-Jewish Jews", I know exactly who you're referring to.. and they are, in fact, a very small but vocal minority of anti-Zionist orthodox fundamentalists who have unwittingly become a stalking horse for anti-semites who wish to cover their bigotry and sound 'reasonable'. They are the equivalent of the Civil Rights 'moderates' in America, back in the 50's and 60's, who tried to turn Martin Luther King jr. from his course of civil disobedience, for fear it would alienate whites from the long term goal of black assimilation. Likewise, Zionism would alienate Europe and others from the assimilation of Jews. Alas, for those Jews who vowed "Never Again!", assimilation just isn't good enough.

But I'm thinking I've wondered away from the topic of the Red Cross.

.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono And they probably aren't too crazy about Christians either (and many Palestinians are Christians).

Common misconception!

Gaza - 98% Sunni Muslim to 0.7% Christian and live is hell fir the Christians of Gaza under Hamas.

WB- 90% Sunni Muslim 9.8% Christian. Is 9.8% a lot? Maybe when you compare it to Iran, S.A., Syria, Iraq, Yeman, Libya etc.

Demographics of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono Well, shrike little buddy, you'll never know till you try, will you? And there's another Israeli tactic. It's the old we-live-in-a-tough-neighbourhood-ya-know argument. It boils down to this -- We're a democracy run according to the rule of law, but unlike you we don't have to observe the same niceties as you soft Europeans. Because we're surrounded by screaming savages here. It's a giant lazy cop-out. Either you belong to the group of law-abiding nations or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

Get your facts straight! Don't let your blind hatred for the Jews get in the way. The Jews have tried to reach a peace with the Pals, but the Pals always deny peace. They also make unrealistic demands such as the so called right of return!