Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza

[Praxius]

What a better way to start off the christmas holidays then with another war:



CTV.ca | Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip -- Israeli tanks and bulldozers backed by attack aircraft moved into the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing four militants in the widest operation in the territory since Islamic Hamas forces wrested control in June. The violence took place on the eve of the first formal peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians since early 2001. The Israeli military described it as a routine operation "against the terror infrastructure" in Gaza. Palestinian officials accused Israel of trying to sabotage the peace talks. In Tuesday's operation, tanks and bulldozers pushed about a mile into southern Gaza on the main road between the towns of Khan Younis and Rafah, and deployed over a 2.5 mile-stretch of territory. Residents and Hamas security forces said at least 30 tanks and bulldozers took part in the operation, but the military said 10 tanks were sent in. Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza. At the same time, Israel has been pursuing a peace agreement with the rival Palestinian government of President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank. Among Israel's targets Tuesday was a multistory building that suffered heavy damage. Amid the rubble, at least two militants lay dead, including one man whose body was torn in half by a blast. As rescuers pulled the bodies away, two Israeli shells struck the building seconds apart, sending people scrambling for cover. The body of a third man lay motionless after the blast. The incident was filmed by Associated Press Television News. An AP cameraman and several other journalists at the scene suffered minor injuries and shock. The Islamic Jihad group said an Israeli tank shell killed three of its fighters, and the smaller Popular Resistance Committees said a member died in an airstrike. Hospital officials confirmed the deaths. Schoolchildren ran through the streets of Khan Younis, let out early from school so they could take refuge in their homes. Militants carrying land mines and other weapons dodged among houses and maneuvered behind the tanks to fire at troops. Others took cover behind trees or covered themselves in leaves to camouflage themselves in open farmlands. The operation focused on an area that is a main launching ground for rocket and mortar assaults on army bases and the Israeli-controlled Sufa crossing into Gaza. More than 15 militants have been killed in the area in recent Israeli airstrikes. Soldiers took over the rooftops of several homes at the onset of the operation, which began around dawn, and detained more than 60 people in house-to-house raids, residents said. The Israeli military said they were taken into custody for questioning. An Israeli tank was smoldering after it was hit by a Palestinian grenade. Four soldiers inside were slightly wounded, the military said. "They believe that such operations will harm the resistance and weaken it, but they are mistaken," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum. Although Israel has warned that a major operation against Gaza militants was in the offing, it has said now is not the time for such action. The army said Tuesday's incursion was nothing out of the ordinary. In other fighting, Israel carried out two airstrikes early Tuesday against armed Palestinians who approached troops in northern Gaza, the military said. The military said it identified two hits in the two separate assaults. The violence came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert pledged to "forge a historic path" toward a final accord with Abbas' moderate West Bank Palestinian government. On Wednesday, the two sides are to launch their first formal peace talks in seven years at the historic King David Hotel in Jerusalem. Olmert and Abbas hope to wrap up a deal next year, but Olmert has warned that Israel cannot implement any agreement until Abbas regains control of Gaza and reins in militants there and in the West Bank. Abbas' spokesman, Nabil Abu Rdeneh, called for the international community to intervene to end the latest Israeli incursion in Gaza. "The Israeli policy of escalation aims to sabotage and place obstacles before the negotiations even before they start," he said. Also casting a pall over talks is an Israeli plan to expand a Jewish neighborhood in east Jerusalem. Israel captured the eastern sector of the city in the 1967 Mideast war, and the Palestinians consider any construction there to be a violation of Israel's commitment to the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, which requires Israel to halt all settlement construction. Israel says the road map's freeze on settlement construction does not apply to east Jerusalem, which Israel annexed in 1967. The Palestinians claim east Jerusalem as their capital. Palestinian officials told The Associated Press that Palestinian negotiators would not be prepared to discuss anything in the talks except settlement construction until Israel declares it will halt all settlement expansion.

Never liked hearing when Israel sends in the bulldozers.... too many civilians have died from those in the past.

Wonder if they'll drop more cluster bombs while they're at it too, as well as how long this will last this time?

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius What a better way to start off the christmas holidays then with another war:

So, which of these groups actually celebrate Christmas - the Jews or the Muslims?
ROFL

Quote by: Praxius Never liked hearing when Israel sends in the bulldozers.... too many civilians have died from those in the past. Wonder if they'll drop more cluster bombs while they're at it too, as well as how long this will last this time?

So when militants carry out "rocket and mortar attacks" on Isreal's towns, what do you suggest they do? Turn the other cheek?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval So when militants carry out "rocket and mortar attacks" on Isreal's towns, what do you suggest they do? Turn the other cheek?

Please contribute something to the topic, like a comment, perhaps a personal opinion, rather then always starting off something with a rhetorical question which always leads off the original topic.... pretty please.

I will address your question with my personal opinion later down this thread once things start moving along properly.

In other words, I have no interest in explaining the obvious at this stage.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius What a better way to start off the christmas holidays then with another war: CTV.ca | Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza Never liked hearing when Israel sends in the bulldozers.... too many civilians have died from those in the past. Wonder if they'll drop more cluster bombs while they're at it too, as well as how long this will last this time?

I'm sure Israeli communities don't like having a bunch of missiled dropping on them either. It's obvious in your contempt for Israel that you conveniently ignored the following paragraph in the article:

"Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza."

Which would you prefer: that Israel follow Hamas' lead and launch rockets and mortars or to use bulldozers to simply collapse buildings used by the terrorist organization?

Why is it okay for Hamas to send children into Israel to blow up buses but it's not okay for Israel to send bulldozers in to knock down terrorist strongholds?

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius Please contribute something to the topic, like a comment, perhaps a personal opinion, rather then always starting off something with a rhetorical question which always leads off the original topic.... pretty please.

That wasn't a rhetorical question. I want to know what you suggest they do... you offered up your contempt for their actions, but didn't offer any alternatives. They were attacked. What should they have done??

Quote by: Praxius I will address your question with my personal opinion later down this thread once things start moving along properly. In other words, I have no interest in explaining the obvious at this stage.

How is your opinion obvious? You bad mouth Israel when they go after terrorists, yet you offer no other solutions to their problems. Again, what do you suggest they do?

[GHook93]

Quote by: Dieval So when militants carry out "rocket and mortar attacks" on Isreal's towns, what do you suggest they do? Turn the other cheek?

Exactly that is hyprocrisy! The anti-semites cry foul when Israel takes responsive action against terrorist random missile attacks, yet remain silent and some even applauding when the Pal terrorist shoot missiles at civilians!

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval That wasn't a rhetorical question. I want to know what you suggest they do... you offered up your contempt for their actions, but didn't offer any alternatives. They were attacked. What should they have done?? How is your opinion obvious? You bad mouth Israel when they go after terrorists, yet you offer no other solutions to their problems. Again, what do you suggest they do?

The point is, you don't contribute a damn thing to any of the threads. All you do is question other's opinions and run around in circles, wasting everybody's time, without even remotely stating your own opinion prior to an attack on someone.

I'm not explaining a damn thing to you until you start stating your side for once rather then mooching on someone else's and countering everything they say, no matter what they say.......

So state something and stop asking questions..... stick to the topic for at least one post before you try to derail it off onto something else.

#1 - I never said anything criticizing their incursion/invasion

#2 - I commented on the Bulldozers.

#3 - The Christmas comment was a friggin joke, get over it. If you want to get technical then replace it with Hanukkah, done.

#4 - My cluster bomb is valid. I never said anything opposing their attacks besides two tools they use.

#5 - I never said anything about them not having a right to defend themselves.

Stick to what was supplied for once and stop trolling and throwing words in my friggin mouth, because I'm starting to get a little sick of it.

[Praxius]

Quote by: GHook93 Exactly that is hyprocrisy! The anti-semites cry foul when Israel takes responsive action against terrorist random missile attacks, yet remain silent and some even applauding when the Pal terrorist shoot missiles at civilians!

And if that is pointed in my direction, I refer you to the above post as well, as I can not be any more clearer or more straight forward in explanation.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius The point is, you don't contribute a damn thing to any of the threads. All you do is question other's opinions and run around in circles, wasting everybody's time, without even remotely stating your own opinion prior to an attack on someone. I'm not explaining a damn thing to you until you start stating your side for once rather then mooching on someone else's and countering everything they say, no matter what they say....... So state something and stop asking questions..... stick to the topic for at least one post before you try to derail it off onto something else.

I'm not derailing anything. Personally, I don't have a problem with Isreal trying to weed out the militants attacking their cities. That's VERY hard to do, in their case, as they blend in to the civilian population and use them as protection. You, on the other hand, made comments insinuating that Isreal targets civilians when they make a move like this.
"too many civilians have died from those in the past"
"Wonder if they'll drop more cluster bombs while they're at it too"
You bring up cluster bombs, something not even in the article, yet fail to mention the fact that the militants are using land mines, something highly frowned upon as well.

Quote by: Praxius #1 - I never said anything criticizing their incursion/invasion

Not directly, but it's not hard to spot you distaste for what they're doing.

Quote by: Praxius #2 - I commented on the Bulldozers.

They could send in F-16's to level the entire area...would that be a better alternative to the bulldozers?

Quote by: Praxius #4 - My cluster bomb is valid. I never said anything opposing their attacks besides two tools they use.

Again, not a peep about the militants with land mines, but rather you felt the need to bring up something not even mentioned in the article...

Quote by: Praxius #5 - I never said anything about them not having a right to defend themselves.

Again, what should they do?? you criticize what they are doing, yet you still don't offer any suggestions.

Quote by: Praxius Stick to what was supplied for once and stop trolling and throwing words in my friggin mouth, because I'm starting to get a little sick of it.

You don't like what I post, don't respond. I'm just tired of your anti-Isreal/anti-US attitudes and I will make every effort to point out your hypocritical behaviour.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval I'm not derailing anything. Personally, I don't have a problem with Isreal trying to weed out the militants attacking their cities.

I have tried to be civil on this issue, but it's just getting harder to use soft language to describe what Israel has done over the years. Of course such states may end up with "militants attacking their cities." Roughly the same is happening with Turkey in regard to Kurds they've collectively punished.

It's not at all surprising.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa I have tried to be civil on this issue, but it's just getting harder to use soft language to describe what Israel has done over the years.

What about what the pals have done of the years? Actively targeting Isreali civilians to kill? Don't you see that as a problem??

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius And if that is pointed in my direction, I refer you to the above post as well, as I can not be any more clearer or more straight forward in explanation.

Not specifically in your direction!

[Matt W]

The problem I see is this is so obviously aimed at disrupting the first formal peace talks the Israelis and Palestinians are having in over a decade. Regardless of whether the Gaza Strip is controlled by Fatah or Hamas, the negotiators are obliged to stick up for their people, and will adopt a more hard-line stance. Suspending military operations (however informaly) until the cessation of the talks would have given everyone a lot more room to manouver.

[jose]

the harsh siege imposed on the Gaza Strip has been continuing for the past seven months, but with more cruelty. The siege hinders the freedom movement for people and goods into and out of the Gaza Strip. Therefore, the humanitarian situation has severely deteriorated and the fragile Gaza economy is dying out. That economy was already weak due to Occupation procedures is now on its knees. Accordingly, the Gaza Strip has turned into a big "Ghetto". All Gaza houses carry stories of pain and suffering! Basically, the Gaza Strip depends on importing goods through the Occupied Territories that are under Israeli occupation control. There are no factual actions to alleviate the suffering of people. Thus, we call upon you and we ask persons of conscious to move on and please do something, even by words, in order to help tens of thousands to avoid a crisis that seems inevitable.

DesertPeace: AN APPEAL FROM WARTORN GAZA

Quote by: Dieval What about what the pals have done of the years? Actively targeting Isreali civilians to kill? Don't you see that as a problem??

lets talk about the children of gaza , why should they pay the price of resisting Israeli agression
Is Gaza part of israel or did israel just invade a bantustan?
Bantustan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Matt W]

Quote by: GHook93 Not specifically in your direction!

Stop trolling, GHook. Address the topic rather than starting your usual rants, hey?

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa I have tried to be civil on this issue, but it's just getting harder to use soft language to describe what Israel has done over the years. Of course such states may end up with "militants attacking their cities." Roughly the same is happening with Turkey in regard to Kurds they've collectively punished. It's not at all surprising. Grandpa h.

OK course you will state what the Israelis have done over the year but forget all the collective things the Palestinians have done to provoke it. In Gaza they was nothing put every dead Jew in Israel and the World (the Hamas regime that is). If the Mexican were preaching this and firing missiles into America, we would be blasting the Mexicans into the stone age. We wouldn't give a damn about their claims to Texas, CA and the lands purchased during the LS Purchase. Yet the Jews for all due respect restraint themselves. They even provide Hamas with gas and electricity, A terrorist organization that aims to geocide the Jews that is!

[Matt W]

Enough.

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose DesertPeace: AN APPEAL FROM WARTORN GAZA lets talk about the children of gaza , why should they pay the price of resisting Israeli agression

The Palestinians are bringing this on themselves!
(1) Rejection of the '48 Partition Plan!
(2) Not demanding their lands (Gaza and West Bank) from Egypt and Jordan respectfully when both countries occupied Gaza and the West Bank from '48 to '67!
(3) Uprising in Jordan! The Jordians supressed the uprising harshly. The Arab world didn't care too much, since the it was Arab on Palestinian violence. Therefore they dropped their dream of a Palestinian that included TransJordon and focused only on the Jewish Lands.
(4) Rejecting the Oslo Accords and instead starting the intifada. How do you expect the Jews to respond to terrorism and missile attacks?
(5) Openly rejecting any concessions and demanding everything.
(6) Irrationally holding onto the "right of return." The Palestinian militians hold onto this, not because of their love for the refugees, but because they no it would lead a coup of Israel! A two state solution means 2 states. The only just want is to allow the right of return restricted strictly to the future Pal State and monetary concession made to the Pal (and Jewish Refugee by the Arab countries that kicked them out) refugees by Israel.
(7) Not accepting an equal land partitions for the settlements. Yes the settlements were constructed Illegally, but a just solution would be for Israel to annex the settlements (Not including East Jerusalem) in exachange for Israeli lands, specifically a land connector of Gaza and the West bank and Arab dominated Muslim lands.
(8) Continuous missile and terrorist attacks!

[Matt W]

Last time, GHook. If you're going to turn this into a standard rant, take it elsewhere.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[jose]

Quote by: Dieval What about what the pals have done of the years? Actively targeting Isreali civilians to kill? Don't you see that as a problem??

119 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 971 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”

Palestinian and Israeli children Killed