Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius Same mentality could be used for how some can considder someone who drops bombs from the sky and don't face their targets directly as a hero..... at least the kid's got a pair to risk garunteed death for his cause. Do I considder that heroic? Personally not really.... but I can understand how other cultures could.

Most of these kids aren't even old enough to understand what it means to die - much less to die for a cause.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Ethically, they're not entirely dissimilar.

Yes, they are. As Chancellor pointed out, some of these kids don't understand what it means to die, let alone die for a cause(well said Chancellor)

Quote by: grandpa In either case, parents are asking their children to die, and to kill.

Um, no. Pilots are not typically pre-teen to teen in age, let alone having their parents ordering them to go off and kill themselves...

Quote by: grandpa I've long regarded the ROTC as a kind of child molesting institution. Grandpa h.

That's not really surprising, given some of your other ideals..

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval Yes, they are. As Chancellor pointed out, some of these kids don't understand what it means to die, let alone die for a cause (well said Chancellor)

Here youa ssume maturity comes with legal age. That's hardly true. Plenty of soldiers of any age fail to understand what it means to die, or to know exactly what they are fighting for. And sometimes the young, even what we would consider the very young, may understand reasonably well what the fighting is about. The main issue is whether we should brainwash young people (or other people in general) to do fighting on our behalf, or fighting at all (especially for false ideals).

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa The main issue is whether we should brainwash young people Grandpa h.

We? We?? We're not the ones strapping bombs on to children, and I mean literal children(see the picture I posted).

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval We? We??

Do other countries not encourage youngsters to die? They may be aged a few more years, but they're still going to end up dead for the lies of their parents.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Do other countries not encourage youngsters to die? They may be aged a few more years, but they're still going to end up dead for the lies of their parents. Grandpa h.

No respectable country will "encourage youngsters to die"...that's just sick.
Of course, you probably consider mature adults to be "youngsters". I'm talking about the sick people who strap bombs on to LITTLE kids, in the name of something they don't even understand. Surely even you, with all of your different views of the world, can see this as the sick and deplorable act that it is..

[GHook93]

Quote by: Dieval No respectable country will "encourage youngsters to die"...that's just sick. Of course, you probably consider mature adults to be "youngsters". I'm talking about the sick people who strap bombs on to LITTLE kids, in the name of something they don't even understand. Surely even you, with all of your different views of the world, can see this as the sick and deplorable act that it is..

Damn right no respectable country is going to do this! I don't know how anyone can make a rational argument for it!

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval No respectable country will "encourage youngsters to die"...that's just sick. Of course, you probably consider mature adults to be "youngsters". I'm talking about the sick people who strap bombs on to LITTLE kids, in the name of something they don't even understand. Surely even you, with all of your different views of the world, can see this as the sick and deplorable act that it is..

Of course, you're trying to make it sound like I support using kids as bombers because of my "different" views. But put two and two together.

Of course it's sick and deplorable, but most people consider 18 year olds to be young. Using them is also sick and deplorable. Adding a couple of years into the matter doesn't just make it more correct. Arguably, it's sick to have anyone at any age kill and die for you like some idiot machine. That's my point, though I will probably have to spell it out even more, I'm sure.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 Damn right no respectable country is going to do this! I don't know how anyone can make a rational argument for it!

I wans't defending it, if that's what you're referring to. But because some have very poor reading comprehension, I'm forced to explain myself ever more.

And some wonder why my posts are sometimes lengthy.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Of course, you're trying to make it sound like I support using kids as bombers because of my "different" views. But put two and two together. Of course it's sick and deplorable, but most people consider 18 year olds to be young. Using them is also sick and deplorable. Adding a couple of years into the matter doesn't just make it more correct. Arguably, it's sick to have anyone at any age kill and die for you like some idiot machine. That's my point, though I will probably have to spell it out even more, I'm sure. Grandpa h.

So, with all of your cryptic and ambiguous talk of "youngsters", "children", "ROTC", and "child molesting", I think we've lost sight of the point you were making, regarding this thread and how it relates back to Isreal, Gaza, and Hamas...so, please explain..
Thanks

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval So, with all of your cryptic and ambiguous talk of "youngsters", "children", "ROTC", and "child molesting", I think we've lost sight of the point you were making, regarding this thread and how it relates back to Isreal, Gaza, and Hamas...so, please explain.. Thanks

Well, I didn't start the conversation about young people killing themselves, so I fail to see how I'm at fault here.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Well, I didn't start the conversation about young people killing themselves, so I fail to see how I'm at fault here. Grandpa h.

A point was being made about how Palastinian terrorists strap bombs to kids and blow up civilian targets...and you jumped in about ROTC molesting kids, so I thought you might have a correlation...guess not.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval A point was being made about how Palastinian terrorists strap bombs to kids and blow up civilian targets... and you jumped in about ROTC molesting kids, so I thought you might have a correlation...

But you were trying to say I started this entire part of the discussion, when I clearly didn't. At this point, all these forces are clearly training their young people to die. The ROTC is the American version. And, as one might expect, it's an elitist phenomenon. Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, even touches upon this subject (p. 148):

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well placed
managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the
many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as
the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal
and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa But you were trying to say I started this entire part of the discussion, when I clearly didn't. At this point, all these forces are clearly training their young people to die. The ROTC is the American version. And, as one might expect, it's an elitist phenomenon. Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, even touches upon this subject (p. 148): "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well placed managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." Grandpa h.

ROTC is the "American version" of a terrorist organization using kids to kill others??? Sorry, but that's completely garbage.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval ROTC is the "American version" of a terrorist organization using kids to kill others??? Sorry, but that's completely garbage.

Well, I can think of a local example. Camp Nesbit, the summer camp I attended in grade school, became steeped in controversy not long ago. It was revealed that kids were being trained by the Michigan Tech ROTC for military service with war games, and a cadet named Rebecca Boyce even led kids to chant, "I want to hurt someone! I want to kill someone!" It was a scandal locally.

I suspect similar things might happen elsewhere. And you make this bizarre assumption that its somehow profoundly more moral to produce an 18 year old corpse rather than an 8 year old one. Somehow, that ten year difference means the person in question is less of a tool, less indoctrinated. More to the point, the pattern of having some people kill others is clearly recognizable, regardless of age.

Your general implication that the US government does not engage in terrorism is also simply absurd, but governments have long used their specialized resources to indoctrinate people such as yourself. So technically you are a liar when you say my points are "garbage"-- you're just brainwashed.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Well, I can think of a local example. Camp Nesbit, the summer camp I attended in grade school, became steeped in controversy not long ago. It was revealed that kids were being trained by the Michigan Tech ROTC for military service with war games, and a cadet named Rebecca Boyce even led kids to chant, "I want to hurt someone! I want to kill someone!" It was a scandal locally. I suspect similar things might happen elsewhere. And you make this bizarre assumption that its somehow profoundly more moral to produce an 18 year old corpse rather than an 8 year old one. Somehow, that ten year difference means the person in question is less of a tool, less indoctrinated. More to the point, the pattern of having some people kill others is clearly recognizable, regardless of age. Your general implication that the US government does not engage in terrorism is also simply absurd, but governments have long used their specialized resources to indoctrinate people such as yourself. So technically you are a liar when you say my points are "garbage"-- you're just brainwashed. Grandpa h.

Where were kids in ROTC given bombs & ordered to commit suicide and homicide by blowing themselves and civilians up??
Sorry, but again, your comparrison just doesn't hold water.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval Where were kids in ROTC given bombs & ordered to commit suicide and homicide by blowing themselves and civilians up?? Sorry, but again, your comparrison just doesn't hold water.

Obviously, you're immune to understanding certain basic principles. No, the US system is not identical to that of some Palestinan organization. The acceptable difference is about ten or more years, more high-tech military hardware and, quite often, a different God.

But the principle remains largely the same, as I noted. Adults are still teaching younger generations to kill and/or die on their behalf, often for delusions and lies. The fact is, suicide bombing is just another expression of this pattern, though it hits me more on an emotional level (which is undoubtedly one of the intended effects).

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Obviously, you're immune to understanding certain basic principles. No, the US system is not identical to that of some Palestinan organization. The acceptable difference is about ten or more years, more high-tech military hardware and, quite often, a different God. But the principle remains largely the same, as I noted. Adults are still teaching younger generations to kill and/or die on their behalf, often for delusions and lies. The fact is, suicide bombing is just another expression of this pattern, though it hits me more on an emotional level (which is undoubtedly one of the intended effects). Grandpa h.

So, what you're saying is that suicide(or rather homicide) bombing of civilians is essentially the same thing as our military defending this country....riiiiiiight...
I find that highly insulting and completely untrue.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval So, what you're saying is that suicide(or rather homicide) bombing of civilians is essentially the same thing as our military defending this country.... riiiiiiight...

Does war have absolutely nothing in common with suicide or homicide? Has the Us not bombed any civilians, and/or supported campaigns of others in which this was done?

I'd suggest Western imperialism is a major reason so many are turning to radical Islam.
And, of course, they'll say pretty much what you're saying, that they're just defending themselves.
They'll also refer to America as a haven of murderers and thugs, and to an extent they are right. our government has invaded many countries, and we are also not a saintly people.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Does war have absolutely nothing in common with suicide or homicide? Has the Us not bombed any civilians, and/or supported campaigns of others in which this was done?

Do you really hold such a limited and hateful view of the US that you need this type of slanderous question answered?

Quote by: grandpa I'd suggest Western imperialism is a major reason so many are turning to radical Islam. And, of course, they'll say pretty much what you're saying, that they're just defending themselves. They'll also refer to America as a haven of murderers and thugs, and to an extent they are right. our government has invaded many countries, and we are also not a saintly people. Grandpa h.

Why do I even have to ask.....your statements speak volumes to your hatred of the US.