Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 There is no other way to remedy the situation! If there was a better way they would do it!

Why do you assume that? Why do you assume Israel's intentions MUST be benign? The evidence certainly is not in what they are doing.

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose Duh. the southern border of Gaza is Egypt, and its entire western border is the Med. sea https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gz.html And if this Raid on Gaza is to stop rocket attacks on Sederot, which is to the north of Gaza, why did the izzy´s attack the south, Rafah and khan yunis?

Maybe you should have initially specified WHICH borders your talking about....

Quote by: jose the borders are controlled by israel they cant leave without israeli permission

"the borders" is not very specific...
My comment was pointing out that of course Isreal is going to control their OWN borders and not allow poeple free entry.

And according to your map, and assuming that North is up, "the southern border of Gaza is Egypt" is not necessarilly the only interpretation. Isreal appears to be south of Gaza as well.

[jose]

Quote by: Dieval Maybe you should have initially specified WHICH borders your talking about.... "the borders" is not very specific... My comment was pointing out that of course Isreal is going to control their OWN borders and not allow poeple free entry. And according to your map, and assuming that North is up, "the southern border of Gaza is Egypt" is not necessarilly the only interpretation. Isreal appears to be south of Gaza as well.

The point is the izzys not only control their own borders but also control all of Gazas borders by land, air and sea the people are trapped
The occupied Palestinian territories: Dignity Denied

"To be a Palestinian means to face limits in every aspect of life. We are blocked everywhere: we lose our jobs, we cannot travel freely, we are separated from our families. To be a Palestinian means to be deprived of many things that to others are normal."

The occupied Palestinian territories: Dignity Denied
will you read this link?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: grandpa I'm not asikng for people to be treated "like citizens," but like human beings. Grandpa h.

Why do you stupidly assume they're not being treated like human beings? I suppose you think that not letting Mexicans cross the southern border (and Canadians the norther border) into the United States without going through the border checkpoints is also failure to treat them like human beings.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: grandpa Why do you assume that? Why do you assume Israel's intentions MUST be benign? The evidence certainly is not in what they are doing. Grandpa h.

Why do you assume Israeli intentions must be malevolent?

[jose]

Quote by: Chancellor Why do you assume Israeli intentions must be malevolent?

Well we see the results and draw our own conclusions, how would you feel if it was israelis being treated this way?
Gaza is being turned into a death camp, and you support it?

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose The point is the izzys not only control their own borders but also control all of Gazas borders by land, air and sea the people are trapped The occupied Palestinian territories: Dignity Denied The occupied Palestinian territories: Dignity Denied will you read this link?

From the link you provided, it says "Palestinian militants are launching rockets towards Israel almost every day".......And then Isreal goes in and tries to root out the militants who are attacking... One should logically see that if the militants stop firing rockets towards Irsrael, there would be no need to root these people out and things should get better for everyone...

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose the borders are controlled by israel they cant leave without israeli permission

Actually, according to wikipedia(take that with a grain of salt), Hamas now controls the border between Egypt and Gaza(not Israel, as you claim).

Quote by: wiki Gaza Strip has been under the effective control of Hamas since June 14, 2007. Hamas also effectively controls the Strip's since June 14, 2007. Hamas also effectively controls the Strip's international border with Egypt

It also goes on to say...

Quote by: wiki While clamping down on lawlessness in the Strip, it[HAMAS] has made no effort to control the continued firing of Qassam rockets from the Strip across the from the Strip across the border into Israel, targeted at Israeli civilians.

Sounds like Hamas might be the biggest obstacle to peace in the region....

Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose Well we see the results and draw our own conclusions, how would you feel if it was israelis being treated this way?

Israelis are treated worse! If they even set foot in Gaza or the West Bank they are violently attacked! Check points would be a 10 fold step up.

How can you rationally even argue that check-point are inhumane when they are using to protect against suicide bomber, to which the Pals brought upon themselves!

Gaza is being turned into a death camp, and you support it?

Please your propaganda is getting old! Gazans are the ones bring this upon themselves!

[jose]

Quote by: GHook93 Israelis are treated worse! If they even set foot in Gaza or the West Bank they are violently attacked! Check points would be a 10 fold step up. How can you rationally even argue that check-point are inhumane when they are using to protect against suicide bomber, to which the Pals brought upon themselves! Please your propaganda is getting old! Gazans are the ones bring this upon themselves!

what.. every man women and child?

[Matt W]

*sighs* Well, this is no longer Breaking News...there's a thread for this stuff, people. It's in Politics & Government.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose what.. every man women and child?

When this is the type of crap you promote....it gets kinda hard to deny...

[Praxius]

One person's villain is another person's hero.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: jose Well we see the results and draw our own conclusions, how would you feel if it was israelis being treated this way? Gaza is being turned into a death camp, and you support it?

How would you feel if your neighbor was firing missiles at you and sending their children with bombs strapped to them onto your buses and into your markets to blow them up - all as the rest of the world chastises you for retaliating.

It is really stupid of you to go around attacking Israel's motives when it's the Palestinians that have been blowing up Israel's civilians!

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius One person's villain is another person's hero.

...a kid with a bomb strapped to his chest could even be REMOTELY considered a hero?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval ...a kid with a bomb strapped to his chest could even be REMOTELY considered a hero?

Same mentality could be used for how some can considder someone who drops bombs from the sky and don't face their targets directly as a hero..... at least the kid's got a pair to risk garunteed death for his cause. Do I considder that heroic? Personally not really.... but I can understand how other cultures could.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius Same mentality could be used for how some can considder someone who drops bombs from the sky and don't face their targets directly as a hero..... at least the kid's got a pair to risk garunteed death for his cause. Do I considder that heroic? Personally not really.... but I can understand how other cultures could.

You just compared someone in the air force, dropping bombs on military targets(assuming you're referencing the US air force), to a child strapped with explosives...and you think that's somehow a valid comparrison????
Children should NEVER be used as instruments of war!

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chancellor Why do you stupidly assume they're not being treated like human beings? I suppose you think that not letting Mexicans cross the southern border (and Canadians the norther border) into the United States without going through the border checkpoints is also failure to treat them like human beings.

I like how you say "stupidly assume." To treat others like "human beings" means to treat them humanely, the way I feel people should mostly be treated. If citizenship, or any other ideal, means people get treated in an inhumane way (such as group punishment), then I'll have reason to argue against it.

We have the visa, the pass, the ID card because governments prefer it over direct gunpoint.
Unfortunately, people are going to keep plugging along, seeing these same old problems because of the same old delusions. Citizenship is designed to keep us ignorant and down; prostrated to the state, as it were.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chancellor Why do you assume Israeli intentions must be malevolent?

First of all, I don't just assume. I look at the evidence. Second, it's perfectly reasonable to assume coercive institutions are illegitimate or "malevolent" unless a compelling case can be made otherwise.

If group punishment is a tactic (as is the case with Israel, and a vast number of other political systems), then there is already reason to assume the punisher should be taken out of power, preferably to be replaced by no other authority.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval You just compared someone in the air force, dropping bombs on military targets(assuming you're referencing the US air force), to a child strapped with explosives... and you think that's somehow a valid comparrison????

Ethically, they're not entirely dissimilar. In either case, parents are asking their children to die, and to kill. I've long regarded the ROTC as a kind of child molesting institution.

Grandpa h.