Israeli tanks, bulldozers move into Gaza

[Dieval]

Quote by: Matt W The problem I see is this is so obviously aimed at disrupting the first formal peace talks the Israelis and Palestinians are having in over a decade. Regardless of whether the Gaza Strip is controlled by Fatah or Hamas, the negotiators are obliged to stick up for their people, and will adopt a more hard-line stance. Suspending military operations (however informaly) until the cessation of the talks would have given everyone a lot more room to manouver.

I'm going to assume that your statement "Suspending military operations" should include the "Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities". Correct?

[Dieval]

Quote by: GHook93 The Palestinians are bringing this on themselves! (1) Rejection of the '48 Partition Plan! (2) Not demanding their lands (Gaza and West Bank) from Egypt and Jordan respectfully when both countries occupied Gaza and the West Bank from '48 to '67! (3) Uprising in Jordan! The Jordians supressed the uprising harshly. The Arab world didn't care too much, since the it was Arab on Palestinian violence. Therefore they dropped their dream of a Palestinian that included TransJordon and focused only on the Jewish Lands. (4) Rejecting the Oslo Accords and instead starting the intifada. How do you expect the Jews to respond to terrorism and missile attacks? (5) Openly rejecting any concessions and demanding everything. (6) Irrationally holding onto the "right of return." The Palestinian militians hold onto this, not because of their love for the refugees, but because they no it would lead a coup of Israel! A two state solution means 2 states. The only just want is to allow the right of return restricted strictly to the future Pal State and monetary concession made to the Pal (and Jewish Refugee by the Arab countries that kicked them out) refugees by Israel. (7) Not accepting an equal land partitions for the settlements. Yes the settlements were constructed Illegally, but a just solution would be for Israel to annex the settlements (Not including East Jerusalem) in exachange for Israeli lands, specifically a land connector of Gaza and the West bank and Arab dominated Muslim lands. (8) Continuous missile and terrorist attacks!

Ghook is completely right. The pals don't apear to want peace here. They want an end to Isreal. Not one other person here condemns anything the pals do, but Isreal lifts a finger and 10 people speak up harrasing them.

[jose]

Quote by: Dieval Ghook is completely right. The pals don't apear to want peace here. They want an end to Isreal. Not one other person here condemns anything the pals do, but Isreal lifts a finger and 10 people speak up harrasing them.

please stop useing the word ¨pals¨ to a Palestinian this word is the same as calling a black person nigger

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose Palestinian and Israeli children Killed

I might actually address your posts if you stopped referencing sites like joeblows blogspot and ifameranskenw.org....

And I'll call the Palestinians "pals" if I want to. I don't believe that you're simile for the "pal" term is even remotely accurate.

[jose]

Quote by: Dieval I might actually address your posts if you stopped referencing sites like joeblows blogspot and If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine /....[/url] And I'll call the Palestinians "pals" if I want to. I don't believe that you're simile for the "pal" term is even remotely accurate.

keep out the kitchen then

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval I'm not derailing anything. Personally, I don't have a problem with Isreal trying to weed out the militants attacking their cities. That's VERY hard to do, in their case, as they blend in to the civilian population and use them as protection. You, on the other hand, made comments insinuating that Isreal targets civilians when they make a move like this.

I agree with most of the above, but I did not say anything claiming they specifically target civilians on purpose.

If they are being attacked, then they have every right to respond, much as Turkey is with Iraq.

"too many civilians have died from those in the past" "Wonder if they'll drop more cluster bombs while they're at it too" You bring up cluster bombs, something not even in the article, yet fail to mention the fact that the militants are using land mines, something highly frowned upon as well.

Highly frowned apon yes, but most countries, including the US still use and defend the use of land mines, so until those sides see these as being a problem as well, then not much is going to be done.

Cluster Bombs are more of a hot topic, more so in this case, because of them being dropped in urban areas loaded with civilians, and in fact many form the previous summer battle they had a while back are still lying around, and there is no real way that you can mark where they landed. Land mines, although not a favorite of mine either, are not as easy to have spread about, nor do they break up into little cluster mines.

If one is lucky and the guy who planted the mines is still alive, he could at least go back and disarm or remove them.... at the very least, be able to report the general location of them so that they can... with Cluster Bombs, there's not much you can do in the same aspect. You can ask the pilot where he roughly dropped his payload, but since they break up and spread before they land, there's even less garuntee that you can snag them all before you get a large number of civilian casualties...... which is why most other countries are moving for a ban on their use.

And on the bulldozer comment of mine, there have also been many reported civilian casualties from them using these to demolish buildings with suspected forces in them in a quick and easy fashion.... but without some form of comfirmation or any regard for civilian lives, it is very easy to add up the civilian tally.

I actually am glad that the US doesn't use this tactic in Iraq against insurgents, and to my knowlege, Israel is the only country to use bulldozers in a military fashion such as this..... to my knowlege.

Cluster bombs were not included into the article, but they used them in their last military campaign, which they first denied they used them and later they defended their use of them.

Not directly, but it's not hard to spot you distaste for what they're doing.

I only have distaste for two of their tools that they use, not their actual response.

They could send in F-16's to level the entire area...would that be a better alternative to the bulldozers?

That's pretty much what they're doing with the cluster bombs.... the fact that they applied the two together in the past is what concerns me.

And if they leveled the area with regular bombs, at least there wouldn't be left overs waiting around to kill people after the war is over.

Again, not a peep about the militants with land mines, but rather you felt the need to bring up something not even mentioned in the article...

They can do whatever they wish within the boundaries of their own country, much as if Israel wished to cluster bomb their own country and people, they can do so all they want. It's when these sorts of methods and weapons are used on another country, much like the militants shooting their rockets into Israel.... I don't promote that..... nor do I promote cluster bombs or the bulldozers.

Again, what should they do?? you criticize what they are doing, yet you still don't offer any suggestions.

Keep it as a military campaign against the militants and reduce tactics which may cause a great deal of civilian loss. If you show no regard for the safety of the civilians, then the civilians will in turn begin to hate you and then take up arms against you, thereby continuing the supply of troops, hatred and attacks against you..... much as when these militants continue to target civilians with their rockets, those continue to fuel the hatred towards them, and causes more to join up for the cause.

The moment both sides start to deal with this overall situation in some kind of civilized fashion and at least attempt to reduce the potiential civilian casualties between both sides, then the easier and quicker it will be to come to some final resolution with as little personal carried on hatred for lost family and friends, etc.

One civilian dieing in a war causes 5x more problems then one soldier being killed, as there is the innocence factor in place, and when the innocent die, more seek revenge..... Iraq is a prime example of this situation.

You don't like what I post, don't respond. I'm just tired of your anti-Isreal/anti-US attitudes and I will make every effort to point out your hypocritical behaviour.

Haven't been hypocritical in either of these fashions.... I am not anti-Israel, except when it comes to their methods of war which cause a lot more civilian casualties then are nessicary..... as well as their air strikes into other countries such as Syria who did not attack them to cause this action, just like how they are talking about attacking Iran, even though they have not made any hostile actions against them.

And my hatred for the US is 80% towards your corrupt government.... the other 20% is towards the civilian population who are too slack ass to do anything about them.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius Highly frowned apon yes, but most countries, including the US still use and defend the use of land mines, so until those sides see these as being a problem as well, then not much is going to be done.

My point was that you brought up something not in the article and ignored something that was. Considering Canada is leading the way trying to get rid of land mines, I thought you'd be more concerned.

Quote by: Praxius And on the bulldozer comment of mine, there have also been many reported civilian casualties from them using these to demolish buildings with suspected forces in them in a quick and easy fashion.... but without some form of comfirmation or any regard for civilian lives, it is very easy to add up the civilian tally.

See, this is what irritates me. You assume that Isreal(and the US, as noted in other threads) are completely ignorant of their surroundings and don't do any intel work at all. I'm sorry, but that is completely fictitious.

Quote by: Praxius Keep it as a military campaign against the militants and reduce tactics which may cause a great deal of civilian loss.

All indications point towards that what they are currently doing.

Quote by: Praxius If you show no regard for the safety of the civilians, then the civilians will in turn begin to hate you and then take up arms against you, thereby continuing the supply of troops, hatred and attacks against you.....

The problem with your reasoning here, is that the Pals already hate Isreal and Isreali's, regardless of what they do.

Quote by: Praxius The moment both sides start to deal with this overall situation in some kind of civilized fashion and at least attempt to reduce the potiential civilian casualties between both sides, then the easier and quicker it will be to come to some final resolution with as little personal carried on hatred for lost family and friends, etc.

I agree.

[Praxius]

See there you go, the Universe proves once again that anything can happen, like both of us agreeing on something.

Maybe there's hope for them yet

[another day]

Sad stuff. you begin to realize none of this will end until everyone is dead. If only everyone could wake up one day with no memory.

[GHook93]

Quote by: jose please stop useing the word ¨pals¨ to a Palestinian this word is the same as calling a black person nigger

Not its not! Nice try to on attempting to paint him as a racist!

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval What about what the pals have done of the years? Actively targeting Isreali civilians to kill?

Oh, of course that's a problem. It's a problem when Israelis do it to Palestinians as well.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 OK course you will state what the Israelis have done over the year but forget all the collective things the Palestinians have done to provoke it. In Gaza they was nothing put every dead Jew in Israel and the World (the Hamas regime that is).

But have ALL Palestinians provoked Israel to punish them? Must all Palestinians be humiliated by Israel's horrendous "border security" programs?

Grandpa h.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: grandpa But have ALL Palestinians provoked Israel to punish them? Must all Palestinians be humiliated by Israel's horrendous "border security" programs? Grandpa h.

Since the Palestinians in question are not Israeli citizens, why should they be allowed to go in and out of Israel at all? Non-citizens do not have the right to be treated like citizens!

[GHook93]

Quote by: grandpa But have ALL Palestinians provoked Israel to punish them? Must all Palestinians be humiliated by Israel's horrendous "border security" programs? Grandpa h.

There is no other way to remedy the situation! If there was a better way they would do it!

When you can't tell a terrorist/suicide bomber from a civilian, then yes it is a 100% acceptable and justified to have the border security programs!

[jose]

Quote by: Chancellor Since the Palestinians in question are not Israeli citizens, why should they be allowed to go in and out of Israel at all? Non-citizens do not have the right to be treated like citizens!

the borders are controlled by israel they cant leave without israeli permission

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa It's a problem when Israelis do it to Palestinians as well.

Show us where the Isreali's have ACTIVELY targeted civilian pals? As in sent people to kill them, like blowing up buses and resteraunts and such.

[Dieval]

Quote by: jose the borders are controlled by israel they cant leave without israeli permission

So, are you saying that the Pals should be able to come and go through Isreal's borders and Isreal should have no say in the matter??

Of course Isreal is going to control it's borders. Duh.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: jose the borders are controlled by israel they cant leave without israeli permission

Since Palestinians leaving their territory involves going into Israel, why should Israel allow them to do so? Oh, and by the way, there is a worker program where some Palestinians are actually allowed into Israel to work at jobs.

[jose]

Quote by: Dieval So, are you saying that the Pals should be able to come and go through Isreal's borders and Isreal should have no say in the matter?? Of course Isreal is going to control it's borders. Duh.

Duh. the southern border of Gaza is Egypt, and its entire western border is the Med. sea
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/gz.html

And if this Raid on Gaza is to stop rocket attacks on Sederot, which is to the north of Gaza, why did the izzy´s attack the south, Rafah and khan yunis?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chancellor Since the Palestinians in question are not Israeli citizens, why should they be allowed to go in and out of Israel at all? Non-citizens do not have the right to be treated like citizens!

I'm not asikng for people to be treated "like citizens," but like human beings.

Grandpa h.