Gunman, victim killed in Colo. church attack

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: mark Your chart doesn't have anything to do with availability of guns to individuals, it's mostly cultural from what I can tell.

Now you're simply playing dumb. Charts showing the dramatic increases in atmospheric CO2 don't have anything to do with temperature either, but the connection to global warming is well established.

The United States, almost alone among the world's civilized nations and democracies, does not heavily restrict gun ownership. When this is pointed out, the rejoinder is always that the rest of 'em are a bunch of socialists who don't like our freedoms. Well I've been abroad and most of them seem perfectly free to me... mostly free of violent crime.

But in one sense I do agree... it's cultural. Cultural in that we live in a gun culture, where the entire mythology of our nation is built on guns, and our popular culture -- movies, TV, games, etc. -- wallows in gunfire and how good guys are always handy with a gun, and problems get solved with gunfire. Hell, todays computer games, which studies now prove promote violence, are nothing more than combat training programs. All of this is a direct result of Americas love affair with guns and gun play.

.

[mark3748]

Quote by: Sonart . Hell, todays computer games, which studies now prove promote violence, are nothing more than combat training programs. All of this is a direct result of Americas love affair with guns and gun play.

I wouldn't even start with that BS, the link between violence and video games has been shown to be non-existant. If you want to believe the fallacies spouted off by Jack Thompson and the like, go ahead, but it is pure BS.

Head to Head from 1UP.com
Brooks Brown's 1UP Blog: Violence in games is a GOOD thing.

And, an article directly related to the OP:
GamePolitics.com » Blog Archive » Colorado Church Shooter Was Kept Away from Video Games By Parents

See, violence in video games prevents violence in the real world

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: mark3748 I wouldn't even start with that BS, the link between violence and video games has been shown to be non-existant. If you want to believe the fallacies spouted off by Jack Thompson and the like, go ahead, but it is pure BS. Head to Head from 1UP.com Brooks Brown's 1UP Blog: Violence in games is a GOOD thing. And, an article directly related to the OP: GamePolitics.com » Blog Archive » Colorado Church Shooter Was Kept Away from Video Games By Parents See, violence in video games prevents violence in the real world

I think this is the first post of yours I have agreed with.

Seeing a link from 1up.com made me do a double take.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Mark I wouldn't even start with that BS,

No doubt. I mean, what's does several controlled scientific studies mean when compared to a gamer's or the gaming industry's opinion?

Head to Head -- Let's see.,. one game industry expert who says pretty much exactly what I did --

--"A cyberterrorism expert has found that games such as [THQ's] Full Spectrum Warrior, or Full Spectrum Command as it's known in the military, is being used by al Qaeda to train their troops. These games don't just teach skills—they break down the inhibition to kill. We've been trained by society and our parents not to kill another person, so the way you break that down is to put a soldier in a VR setting, which will be far more effective in the long run."--

The other who says only that none of the studies suggests that video games will transform a "normal kid into an antisocial menace, someone who can be involved in a school shooting." Well, Duh!! No one said Global Warming's going to flood the globe tomorrow, either. What the research says is...

--"One study reveals that young men who are habitually aggressive may be especially vulnerable to the aggression-enhancing effects of repeated exposure to violent games," said psychologists Craig A. Anderson, Ph.D., and Karen E. Dill, Ph.D. "The other study reveals that even a brief exposure to violent video games can temporarily increase aggressive behavior in all types of participants."--

This also applies to violent television...

--"In one study, scientists at the University of Michigan recorded the TV-watching habits of hundreds of first and third graders in 1977. Fifteen years later, the researchers looked at what kind of adults these kids had become.

By the time they were in their early twenties, women who had watched violent shows as kids were four times as likely to have punched, choked, or beaten other people as were women who didn't watch such programs as kids. Boys who watched violent TV grew up to be three times as likely to commit crimes as boys who didn't watch such programs."--

What your source does say is...

--"The contributing factors are mental illness, kids going off mood-altering meds, domestic violence, broken families, poverty—these are much bigger factors that can cause school shootings."--

America has always had mental illness, domestic violence, brokenhomes and poverty. Combine these with enhanced aggression and decreased inhibition for killing and you have a formula for combustion. And even with normal, well adjusted kids, added aggression and reduced inhibitions to violence can affect behavior.

--"Three kinds of research link violent video games to increased aggression. First, there are studies that look for correlations between exposure to these games and real-world aggression. This work suggests that kids who are more immersed in violent video games may be more likely to get into physical fights, argue with teachers, or display anger and hostility. Second, there is longitudinal research (measuring behavior over time) that assesses gaming habits and belligerence in a group of children. One example: A study of 430 third-, fourth-, and fifth-graders, published this year by psychologists Craig Anderson, Douglas Gentile, and Katherine Buckley, found that the kids who played more violent video games "changed over the school year to become more verbally aggressive, more physically aggressive," and less helpful to others."--

BrookBrown's Blog -- Oh goody, a video game junkie's blog vs. the American Pschological Association. Let's see... whose unbiased opinion should I trust? And Brown's observation?...

--"But the terrifying thing? 11 year olds. Yup - if anyone is going to bring down our game world, it's you little bastards.

My dad said it was the most disgusting thing he'd ever seen. His face was red. Seem like an overkill reaction? nah - you see, i was on xbox live and some little kid called me a ni**er jew who should be raped, burned, etc. he was ranting. (forgive the language - but if you've played halo 2 on live, you've heard worse). You all have seen it happen. a little kid who doesn't have his parents around decides to be big man and yell at everyone obscenities that make all of us embarrassed to be gamers."--

Yeah, that sounds encouraging. Those kids should be real pillars of civility when they get older.

GamePolitics.com -- And even more unbiased expert opinion from...the Entertainment Consumers Association??? The gamers lobby???? Great call, Mark. Their case? One recent shooter wasn't even allowed to play video games. Wow, there we are... case closed.

Yep, you really know how to advance an argument, Mark.

.

[mark3748]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I think this is the first post of yours I have agreed with. Seeing a link from 1up.com made me do a double take.

What can I say, I'm a gamer, that's how I roll

[mark3748]

Quote by: Sonart . Head to Head -- Let's see.,. one game industry expert who says pretty much exactly what I did --

Jack Thompson is hardly a "game industry expert." He's a medical malpractice lawyer that has never played a single game in his entire life, and has devoted his entire life to destroying the game industry. I thought it may help to have two biased opinions, one in one direction and the other in the opposite. There others were more for entertainment value than anything, especially the one about the New Life guy.

Quote by: Sonart . --"But the terrifying thing? 11 year olds. Yup - if anyone is going to bring down our game world, it's you little bastards. My dad said it was the most disgusting thing he'd ever seen. His face was red. Seem like an overkill reaction? nah - you see, i was on xbox live and some little kid called me a ni**er jew who should be raped, burned, etc. he was ranting. (forgive the language - but if you've played halo 2 on live, you've heard worse). You all have seen it happen. a little kid who doesn't have his parents around decides to be big man and yell at everyone obscenities that make all of us embarrassed to be gamers."-- Yeah, that sounds encouraging. Those kids should be real pillars of civility when they get older.

Yeah, the 11 yo's on Live are annoying, but it really doesn't mean anything. Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Asshole, it's a scientifically proven fact, I mean look at some of the people on here (present company excluded, of course ) Penny Arcade! - Green Blackboards (And Other Anomalies)

Some better links to support my position:

JEFFREY H
GamePolitics.com » Blog Archive » Researcher Finds Scant Evidence Linking Violent Games With Aggressive Behavior - yes, I know it's from gamepolitics.com, but it's about a research paper by a Ph.D faculty member at Texas A&M International University’s Department of Behavioral, Applied Sciences and Criminal Justice.
BBC NEWS | Technology | Blaming the dark side of gaming
Video Games Do Not Cause Violence - Commentary

Japan has far more violence in games and really all media than the US, Canada is equal, and nearly every country in the world watches the same movies, and the same or similar TV shows with the same "gun culture" as the US without the same issues.

Like I said, it's cultural, but I think it has little to do with violence in the media. It seems to have more to do with the fact that we are a melting pot of multiple cultures, with everything from the urban hip-hop culture to the religious fundamentalists, people clash and violence happens. Thankfully crime rates have been decreasing, and will hopefully continue to do so, but I don't think that restricting individual liberty is the proper way to encourage it.

[mark3748]

Oh, I forgot this quote, and as much as I hate to agree with Michael Moore on anything, here it is, from BBC NEWS | Technology | Blaming the dark side of gaming:

As Michael Moore so eloquently discussed in Bowling For Columbine, Canada has violence in movies and games, plus more guns per capita than the US, but proportionately a fraction of the killings.

[Osborn F Enready]

Well assembled and delivered arguments Mark.

As usual, I find myself in 100% agreement.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Mark What can I say, I'm a gamer, that's how I roll

So am I. My handle, Sonart, is short for Sony Artist, from my years working at Sony Online Entertainment here in San Diego, developing such games as EverQuest, PlanetSide and StarWars Galaxies. I also spent ten years as a hard-core paintballer, including two trips to the World professional championships in Nashville.

So I'm commenting from experience deep within the belly of the beast. I came to know gamers and paintballers, and I'm just observant and pragmatic enough to know what I'm looking at. Worst of all is that I saw it in myself and it wasn't a pretty revelation. It's a major reason I'm so pro-gun control today.

Quote by: Osborn As usual, I find myself in 100% agreement.

Color me so surprised.

Quote by: Mark Jack Thompson is hardly a "game industry expert."

LOL!!! Are you really gonna criticize me for referencing YOUR source? Whadda maroon.

Quote by: Mark Yeah, the 11 yo's on Live are annoying, but it really doesn't mean anything.

Says who? How do you know that their behavior is limited by anonymity? The scientifically controlled, peer reviewed studies I sourced don't seem to think so.

Quote by: Mark yes, I know it's from gamepolitics.com, but it's about a research paper

Yep, and the American Petroluem Institution, the American Enterprise Institution and the Tobacco Institute all found PhD to support their extreme minority versions of science.

Quote by: your BBC News source "Social, cultural, ethical and neurobiological issues remain in such a tangle that it is trite and irresponsible of ill-informed commentators to claim that games like Grand Theft Auto are central to terrible crime. Before such accusations are explicitly made, more credible work has to be done in this area. Scientific conclusions may well remain elusive for decades. For now, enjoy your gaming."

...or enjoy your SUV... or your cigarettes ...or your immaculately watered lawn.

And once again your "Gaming Industry columnist" dismisses existing research by declaring it "a tangle" and "elusive". Yet his last sentence seems to wistfully suggest that he knows where the research is heading, and it's not his way.

Quote by: Mark Oh, I forgot this quote, and as much as I hate to agree with Michael Moore on anything, here it is,

You and me both. Ironic, isn't it, that I'm a liberal who can't stand Michael Moore. He's the Rush Limbaugh of the left, who trades in half truthes, innuendo, rumors, out of context comments and outright bullsh!t.

And as far as Canada goes, I suspect their thin population of 33 million, compared to our 300 million, in the world's second largest nation by area, has something to do with it. And yet they still manage to rank number 10 in Gun Deaths in the 36 Richest Nations, behind good 'ol Switzerland (no. 8) and well behind us.

.

[mark3748]

Quote by: Sonart . LOL!!! Are you really gonna criticize me for referencing YOUR source? Whadda maroon.

I wasn't criticizing you for referencing my source, I just don't agree with the label "game industry expert" for someone that has pledged an end to first amendment rights in nearly all media, the latest being video games.

Quote by: Sonart . Yep, and the American Petroluem Institution, the American Enterprise Institution and the Tobacco Institute all found PhD to support their extreme minority versions of science. ...or enjoy your SUV... or your cigarettes ...or your immaculately watered lawn. And once again your "Gaming Industry columnist" dismisses existing research by declaring it "a tangle" and "elusive". Yet his last sentence seems to wistfully suggest that he knows where the research is heading, and it's not his way.

They're just doing the same thing you're doing, picking the studies they agree with and trying to discredit the ones they don't. It happens

Quote by: Sonart . You and me both. Ironic, isn't it, that I'm a liberal who can't stand Michael Moore. He's the Rush Limbaugh of the left, who trades in half truthes, innuendo, rumors, out of context comments and outright bullsh!t. And as far as Canada goes, I suspect their thin population of 33 million, compared to our 300 million, in the world's second largest nation by area, has something to do with it. And yet they still manage to rank number 10 in Gun Deaths in the 36 Richest Nations, behind good 'ol Switzerland (no. 8) and well behind us.

And that's exactly my point, it's not as clear cut and simple as our "gun culture". Our society is far to complex to pigeonhole like that. I don't think that Canada's geography has much to do with their lower crime rate, the population density is similar if you consider that the majority of the country is sparsely inhabited, most of the population lives within 2 hours of the US border, while the Yukon Territory, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut is 41% of the land mass but only 0.3% of the population.

[Osborn F Enready]

Mark said: And that's exactly my point, it's not as clear cut and simple as our "gun culture". Our society is far to complex to pigeonhole like that.

Which is exactly why Sonart and I rarely agree on anything regarding firearms, American History, or much else.

He likes to make pigeoholes, while I try to remove them.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Mark They're just doing the same thing you're doing, picking the studies they agree with and trying to discredit the ones they don't. It happens

What studies? You've presented gamers and gaming industry writers, plus one paper analyzing of other studies.

Quote by: Mark I don't think that Canada's geography has much to do with their lower crime rate, the population density is similar

No it isn't. Canada's most populace city is Toronto, with around 5 million people, followed by Montreal with 3.5 million and Vancouver with 2 million, followed by #4, Calagary, with under a million, etc. There's no comparison to the U.S.

New York ------ 11 million
Los Angeles -- 10 million
Chicago ---------- 9 million
Dallas ------------- 6 million
Philadelphia ---- 5.8 million
Houston -----------5.5 million
Miami---------------5.4 million
Wash. DC---------4 million
etc.

Quote by: Osborn He likes to make pigeonholes, while I try to remove them.

Right, like the way anyone who disagrees with you is a socialist or communist. However, I don't pigeon hole you as much as have you pegged, Osborn. But then, given the amount of time you spend on this board expounding on your every opinion, how could anyone here not have you pegged?


.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Zeebadee Of course, if the perp hadn't been able to obtain a gun, the whole incident would never have occurred.

Praytell, how would making it illegal make it impossible?

[Osborn F Enready]

Sonart said: But then, given the amount of time you spend on this board expounding on your every opinion, how could anyone here not have you pegged?

You should ask yourself that question, seriously..... you haven't had much right about me yet.

[brien]

No, Koresch picked the fight and chose to end it

It was well documented Koresh made frequent trips into Waco, even while under surveillance, so he could have easily been arrested there rather than at the compound. It was the government that picked the location for the fight, not Koresh.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: brien It was well documented Koresh made frequent trips into Waco, even while under surveillance, so he could have easily been arrested there rather than at the compound. It was the government that picked the location for the fight, not Koresh.

No one's saying that the feds didn't screw up in not doing so. They chose to treat Koresh as armed and dangerous and take him by surprise, out of harms way. Big mistake.

However, it's also well documented that Koresh found out about the raid in advance and chose to set up an armed ambush. It's also well documented that he was a messianic psychopath, whose preachings focused on armageddon and his self fulfilling prophecies of conflagration. He was Jim Jones who chose death by cop rather than Cool Aid. The ONLY reason for Koreshs' lasting cult appeal is that he died in the name of gun rights, and for that you're willing to forgive all else in order to make him a 2nd Amendment hero.

MOVE and the SLA also died in conflagrations at the hands of law enforcement, but you don't give a flying fig about them, right? Why? Cuz they were black or because their arsenals weren't the issue?

.

.

[brien]

MOVE and the SLA also died in conflagrations at the hands of law enforcement, but you don't give a flying fig about them, right? Why? Cuz they were black or because their arsenals weren't the issue

I never wrote any opinion on the SLA or Move, or the Black Panthers, here or anywhere else. So to accuse me of being a racist is merely your way of redirecting the fact the government uses unreasonable force on its own citizens when it can better serve them by ending conflicts in a peaceable manner.

It is odd indeed that some of the same people who advocate negotiating with foreign enemies are the same ones who support the government's deadly assaults on its own people. Hmmmmmmmm

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: brien I never wrote any opinion on the SLA or Move, or the Black Panthers, here or anywhere else.

Bingo!!! Yet you and an entire Internet sub-culture write volumes about Waco and Randy Weaver.

So why is that? Well, it's either racism - since, accept for race, and urban vs. rural, they're not all that different - or, as I've submitted, it's because the question of possession of firearms and violations of firearms laws were the issues that sparked the Waco and Weaver conflicts.

Any conspiracy theories about Jim Jones, the SLA or MOVE??? Not really... but then, neither were there any 2nd Amendment issues, so who cared. Just a buncha nuts and good riddance. Yet Koresh was one of the biggest, most malignant screwballs in American history, but he was a gun rights activist, so this enemy of your enemy became your friend, regardless of who he really was.

.

[brien]

Quote by: Sonart . Bingo!!! Yet you and an entire Internet sub-culture write volumes about Waco and Randy Weaver. So why is that? Well, it's either racism - since, accept for race, and urban vs. rural, they're not all that different - or, as I've submitted, it's because the question of possession of firearms and violations of firearms laws were the issues that sparked the Waco and Weaver conflicts. Any conspiracy theories about Jim Jones, the SLA or MOVE??? Not really... but then, neither were there any 2nd Amendment issues, so who cared. Just a buncha nuts and good riddance. Yet Koresh was one of the biggest, most malignant screwballs in American history, but he was a gun rights activist, so this enemy of your enemy became your friend, regardless of who he really was. .

You leaps of faith are only exceeded by your over active imagination.

(btw, with all due respect, the word is except, not accept.)

Once again I must comment:

It is odd indeed that some of the same people who advocate negotiating with foreign enemies are the same ones who support the government's deadly assaults on its own people. my my, isn't that interesting.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: brien It is odd indeed that some of the same people who advocate negotiating with foreign enemies are the same ones who support the government's deadly assaults on its own people. my my, isn't that interestin