CIA destroyed tapes of al-Qaeda interrogations: director

[GHook93]

Quote by: Praxius Doesn't mean you have to stoop to their level.

The guy that conducted these interrogations, even stated that the information was only achieved via the enhanced tactics. And it saved innocent lives.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Matt W I would say torture makes it a fine line....how many of the inmates at Gitmo have beheaded prisoners? Anyone know? Ah yes, we don't...because they're not being granted trials.

Since when do POWs get trial? Ex Parte Quirin (I believe that was the case), made it clear that combatants of war are not entitled to a trial!

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: GHook93 Since when do POWs get trial? Ex Parte Quirin (I believe that was the case), made it clear that combatants of war are not entitled to a trial!

Seems only logical that if you expect the other side to treat your POW's to some standard, that you should extend that same standard to their prisoners.


But hey, your side seems to be meeting it's recruitment goals for military enlistment, so don't listen to me.


I'm probably just spewing Liberal propaganda that I'm regurgitating by response like Pavlovs dog.

[Muser]

Quote by: GHook93 Since when do POWs get trial? Ex Parte Quirin (I believe that was the case), made it clear that combatants of war are not entitled to a trial!

Supporters of the administration, invoking such cases as Johnson v. Eisentrager (1950), stress that courts have always denied that habeas corpus applied to "enemy aliens" captured abroad in wartime. According to attorney Brad Berenson, in a Federalist Society debate on the case, precedent therefore makes clear that detainees have no standing under "our own Constitution, which they of course aim to destroy." But, "of course," that is precisely the question. The past rulings invoked by the government involved captives who were unambiguously agents of foreign powers at war with the United States, not citizens of allied nations snatched off the streets far from any battlefield. Traditionally, courts have used territory as a bright line to determine the status of prisoners: If you were picked up on American soil, you had habeas rights; if not, not. This made a certain amount of sense in traditional war; it makes much less in an ill-defined "War on Terror" that, to hear the administration tell it, makes the whole of the planet a battlefield. Here, hewing to a strict territorial rule has the perverse consequence that the Algerian Six would enjoy more rights, on the government's theory, if they had illegally infiltrated the United States like the Nazi saboteurs whose fate was considered in Ex parte Quirin (1941). The government's circular logic here seems better suited to a Monty Python sketch than a court of law: Throw the old lady in the pond, and if she floats, she's a witch! She might drown, you say? Why are you so worried about what happens to witches?

The rest of the article.

[Matt W]

Quote by: GHook93 Since when do POWs get trial? Ex Parte Quirin (I believe that was the case), made it clear that combatants of war are not entitled to a trial!

The war is over - according to your friend and mine, G.Bush Jnr - POWs get repatriated, not indefinately incarcerated.

[Matt W]

Quote by: GHook93 The guy that conducted these interrogations, even stated that the information was only achieved via the enhanced tactics. And it saved innocent lives.

He also said he didn't see the need for it now.

'Enhanced tactics'? Call a spade a spade, GHook. Waterboarding is torture. Calling something by a nice name doesn't make it nice.

[Praxius]

And there is no proof that any other methods of extracting information couldn't have worked just as effectively without stooping to torture.

And the funny thing about that Water Boarding video they showed on CNN a day or so ago..... sure they show buddy getting the basics of what they do.... but think about actually getting interogated and totured for long days back to back?

How much you want to bet that more was done which was recorded on those videos they destroyed?

Hell, if it was my job to torture or interogate someone, I wouldn't just be water boarding the guy, I'd be punching him in the stomach and ribs to make it even harder for him to properly breath under these conditions. Maybe I'd attach a car battery to their testicles too while they are getting drowned with water..... I can be evil too when I want to be. I'm not saying this is what they did, because now we'll never know.

The guy who recorded himself getting waterboarded lasted apparently just shy of a half hour before his supervisor/boss stopped it.

The fact that apparently it only took 30 seconds for their captured leaders would point chances to them applying a bit more then just waterboarding.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Zeebadee Do you know of an instance where captives "were caught on the battle field supporting al qaida or trying to kill our troops."??

Here's an example of some of the wonderful people we're keeping at Guantanamo....

DETAINEES AT GUANTANAMO Guantanamo detainees include many rank-and- file jihadists who took up arms against the U.S., as well as senior al Qaida operatives and leaders, and Taliban leaders.

As well as these exceptional guys...

Representative examples of specific Guantanamo detainees include: · An al Qaida explosives trainer who has provided information on the September 2001 assassination of Northern Alliance leader Masood and on the al Qaida organization s use of mines. · An individual who completed advanced terrorist training at camps in Afghanistan and participated in an attempted hijacking/escape while in custody that resulted in the deaths of Pakistani guards. · An individual involved in terrorist financing who provided information on Usama bin Laden s front companies, accounts, and international money movements for financing terror. · A Taliban fighter who spent three months fighting on the front lines in Afghanistan and is linked to al Qaida operatives connected to the East Africa embassy bombings. · An individual with links to a financier of the September 11th plots who attempted to enter the United States though Orlando Florida in August 2001. Phone records suggest September 11th hijacker Mohammed Atta was also at the Orlando airport that day. This individual was later captured in Pakistan after fleeing Tora Bora. · Two individuals associated with senior al Qaida members who were working on remotely detonated explosive devices for use against U.S. forces. · A member of an al Qaida supported terrorist cell in Afghanistan that targeted civilians, especially journalists and foreign aid workers; responsible for a grenade attack on a foreign journalist s automobile. · An al Qaida member who was plotting to attack oil tankers in the Persian Gulf using explosives laden fishing boats. · An individual who fought with an al Qaida supported terror cell in Afghanistan, personally establishing reconnaissance and ambush positions around Kandahar Airbase. · An individual who served as a bodyguard for Usama Bin Laden and escorted him to Tora Bora, Afghanistan following the fall of Jalalabad, Afghanistan. · An al Qaida member who served as an explosives trainer for al Qaida and designed a prototype shoe bomb for destroying airplanes and a magnetic mine for attacking ships. · An individual who trained al Qaida associates in the use of explosives and worked on a plot to use cell phones to detonate bombs. · An individual who served as an al Qaida translator and managed operating funds for al Qaida. An individual who helped stockpile weapons for use against U.S. forces in Afghanistan. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2...0040406gua.pdf

[Milton Bradley]

Didn't we determine most of that is alleged, because they were brought in by bounty hunters?

[Dieval]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Didn't we determine most of that is alleged, because they were brought in by bounty hunters?

Amazingly enough, I looked on the Department of Defense's website and couldn't find any of those numbers published in the BBC article relating to "bounty hunters"...hmmmm...

Even if these people were captured thanks to bounties put on al-qaida and the taliban forces, it doesn't change the fact that these ARE al-qaida and taliban forces. Your assumption that everyone that was turned in was taken prisoner and shipped to Gitmo, regardeless of their al-qaida/taliban connection(or lack there of) is completely false.

In Afghanistan alone, there were something on the order of 10,000+ prisoners taken, sorted, and then for the most part, released - except for the ones deemed to be the highest threat/value(you know, those guys down there that I listed).

During the military conflict in Afghanistan, approximately 10,000 enemy fighters were captured, screened or released. Some were Taliban soldiers and some were Al-Qaida fighters. Most were released in Afghanistan after they had been disarmed, and we determined they no longer posed a serious threat of returning to the fight. But more than 700 of these men were so dangerous that they could not be safely detained in Afghanistan. These individuals included terrorist trainers, bomb makers, recruiters and facilitators, terrorist financiers, bodyguards for Usama Bin Laden, and potential suicide bombers. These fighters were detained as enemy combatants at the U.S. military base at Guantanamo, Cuba. CDA Blakeman: The truth about Guantanamo

To answer your question directly, no.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Dieval Here's an example of some of the wonderful people we're keeping at Guantanamo.... As well as these exceptional guys...

Not a single shred of evidence presented against a specific individual, in fact, not a single individual even identified. And the link doesn't even identify itself, with only the URL pointing to a DOD source. It's nothing but a propaganda news release.

Quote by: Dieval Amazingly enough, I looked on the Department of Defense's website and couldn't find any of those numbers published in the BBC article relating to "bounty hunters"...hmmmm...

Yeah, isn't that amazing? A DOD website that doesn't present negative information. Who woulda thunk it??

[thx1138]

Even if these people were captured thanks to bounties put on al-qaida and the taliban forces, it doesn't change the fact that these ARE al-qaida and taliban forces. Your assumption that everyone that was turned in was taken prisoner and shipped to Gitmo, regardeless of their al-qaida/taliban connection(or lack there of) is completely false.

What sources do you have besides the DOD website that these people are who you say they are? You don't question any of the allegations or ways (or by who) these people came to be taken in?

[Dieval]

So, are you guys suggesting that maybe the police should go along with our military, durring a war, to collect forensic evidence, so that we can prosecute these guys found in a different country, under our laws?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Dieval So, are you guys suggesting that maybe the police should go along with our military, durring a war, to collect forensic evidence, so that we can prosecute these guys found in a different country, under our laws?

How about, since you agree that these people were captured "durring a war", we simply treat them as POW's, and abide by the Geneva Conventions?

[Praxius]

Quote by: GHook93 The guy that conducted these interrogations, even stated that the information was only achieved via the enhanced tactics. And it saved innocent lives.

Oh Enhanced Tactics? So that's what they call it these days.

A pile of crap by any other name is still a pile of crap..... you can call it poop, shit, dung, brown human playdough, it's still crap.

Oh yeah, and it was Only achieved by that tactic, probably because that was the only tactic they used, therefore the statement would be true.... wow.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval So, are you guys suggesting that maybe the police should go along with our military, durring a war, to collect forensic evidence, so that we can prosecute these guys found in a different country, under our laws?

Hey, if you don't like it.... don't invade.... pretty simple.

If you want to go in and start a war and capture anyone near a battle or in a battle to face charges you guys invented and also created by the invasion.... if you want to seek so-called justice, then you follow the rule of law.... not make it up as you go along and create new titles which are not covered by the big ol G. Convention. and instead of innocent until proven guilty, they're just guilty until they confess they are guilty.... then you can finally jail them for the rest of their lives officially..... even though this whole stupid limbo thing which is currently going on, is the same equivilant.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Dieval So, are you guys suggesting that maybe the police should go along with our military, durring a war, to collect forensic evidence, so that we can prosecute these guys found in a different country, under our laws?

Actually, I'd suggest not starting pre-emptive wars of aggression.

[jose]

Why did they destroy the tapes? could it be the damage of discovery of the contents be greater than the fallout from distroying them

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: jose Why did they destroy the tapes? could it be the damage of discovery of the contents be greater than the fallout from distroying them

That would be my guess.


However there probably are genuine national security issues at stake here as well.

[jose]

Quote by: Milton Bradley That would be my guess. However there probably are genuine national security issues at stake here as well.

¨national security issues¨ do you mean like ¨hell if the public gets wind of this were f*cked¨?