Worst Mass Slaying In Nebraska History Claims 9

[Praxius]

Ah, you're loving this arn't you?

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I didn't make the FALSE accusation that it WOULD have saved more lives. I said LOGIC DICTATES this could have been the case.

And my logic dictates otherwise.... so there ya go.

YOU MADE the accusation that removing arms WOULD SAVE LIVES, and have yet to show proof of this, as you always do fail to show proof of this, as it is not provable.

I just did above, once again, Read.

And if my side is not provable, then neither is your side..... "Logically" speaking of course.

You can argue till you are blue in the face prax, the fact is, DEFENSE is the only option against unjust force, other than being a victim, if running away isn't an option.

Where did I say it wasn't? You're trying to put words in my mouth by saying that if firearms are removed then you become helpless and somehow loose your rights to defense..... this doesn't even come close to my personal principles.

The agressor determines if this is an option, and I refuse to bow to the wishes of the aggressor.

Nobody said you had to.

Being armed gives me a choice, and being trained makes that choice more viable and reasonable.

Then would you agree to proper training and education being a requirement to at least make one step closer to reducing a remote % of gun related crimes?

I'll take more choices over less choices ANY DAY.

Depends on the choices presented to me.... which is why I personally disagree with that statement, not trying to say it is wrong.... just preference.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Obviously, none of the sheeple in the mall were observing their right to keep and bear arms. You can't disarm intelligent people because sheeple are to ignorant to know their rights. We owe nothing to peoples ignorance.

So let me try and make your feelings simple.

We shouldn't feel sorry for these dead people because its their own fault for not arming themselves.

If your shot dead and you didn't have a gun its your own damn fault, is that your feeling?

[Osborn F Enready]

Ghook said: How was that an insult?

Did you really think I was Ron Paul, or were you yet again just bringing his name up to smear him, and in your view, by association, me.

Don't take me for a fool Ghook.

Ghook said: I support ones right to own firearms. It is a fundamental part of our society and one I agree with, but I not in every situation!

And how is this situation different?

The mall owner has the right to say "no firearms on the premises". If that is the case with this mall, they have an OBLIGATION OF SECURITY, and I would hope all, every single victim, sues this mall to make that point.

Ghook said: Bring a gun onto private property as protection is not the solution.

In your opinion. You don't own that property, its not your place to say WHAT is that property owners choice.

Ghook said: If you allow that in Beverly Hills Mall are you going to allow that in Compton?

I don't live in either, but the choice isn't MINE to make, its private property owners. I would wear my firearm in either location should I feel the need, if it were permissible. If it was not permissible, they wouldn't get my business, period.

Ghook said: It causes more problems than it would solves.

In your opinion, which lacks any backing.

Ghook said: The same broken theory was suggested after the VT shooting. Arming college students (especially during finals time) is a poor solution!

In your opinion, and again, with no backing.

Ghook said: Also was that a threat? Tough guy over the computer

Did I threaten you, person unable to read and comprehend? Obviously it wasn't a threat, but using what YOU call logic, I can see how you would think it is.

If it was, which it wasn't, why would you antagonize such a situation with insults again? (tough guy, over the computer?)

Ghook said: A in both ConLaw I & II from an accredited college!

What are your textbooks?

List them to see if they meet the criteria?

Is all education equal now?

Ghook said: Not enough time!

Then I don't have enough time to deal with your baseless arguments.

[Osborn F Enready]

Prax said: There are other goodies there to you can read up on.

That wasn't valuable to the context of what you are arguing. Its obviously assembled in an anti-gun nation to keep the populace from thinking about the issue.

There are many sources out there, odd how we don't find each others sources credible, isn't it?

Prax said: Once again.... what is your solution in preventing this from happening again? I'm still waiting.

Competent defense, something the victims obviously failed at, as did the "security" they supposedly bought and paid for.

Either way, people died, when they didn't have to. They made a choice, and a choice I won't make, nor will I allow a majority to make for me.

Prax said: but rather what is logical to me and where I live

No such thing.

Things are either logical, and without contradiction, or illogical, riddles with contradiction.

Your arguments are riddled with contradiction, therefore, fail to meet the bar of logic.

Next.

Prax said: The right to bear arms is not improving the security and safety of your streets.

On the contrary, my street is doing just fine.

[Osborn F Enready]

Helio said: So let me try and make your feelings simple. We shouldn't feel sorry for these dead people because its their own fault for not arming themselves.

I said nothing about how we should FEEL. We all have a right to feel as we do, when things affect us.

The fact is, these people chose not to protect themselves, as is their right. They thought they could trust police and security to protect them at all times, and as I have stated repeatedly, they were wrong.

I feel terrible that yet another moron, another person who lets their EMOTION dictate their actions, has damaged the rights of every other citizen in this nation, by once again, place focus on a gun, instead of what put that gun in his hands.

Helio said: If your shot dead and you didn't have a gun its your own damn fault, is that your feeling?

If you are in a position where you can be killed, or defend yourself, and don't act to protect yourself, AS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, yes, it is your fault. It is also your choice.

[Osborn F Enready]

Prax said: And my logic dictates otherwise.... so there ya go.

You aren't using logic, because you obviously don't understand logic can't have CONTRADICTION.

Your entire argument is RIDDLED with contradiction.

Go look up the meaning of logic Prax, and stop wasting peoples time.

Prax said: And if my side is not provable, then neither is your side..... "Logically" speaking of course.

My side is proven out everyday, when a person uses an arm to defend themselves.

Check out the source I provided. THAT IS A FACTUAL SOURCE.

Welcome to an example of logic.

Prax said: Where did I say it wasn't?

When you said firearms had no role in defense in the hands of private individuals.

prax said: You're trying to put words in my mouth by saying that if firearms are removed then you become helpless and somehow loose your rights to defense.....

No, the PROVEN MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF DEFENSE, against all forms of aggression known to man, natural or man made.

prax said: this doesn't even come close to my personal principles.

Then you don't express yourself well.

prax said: Nobody said you had to.

By denying individual arms play a role in defense, you are removing the most sensible and effective option to defense.

Prax said: Then would you agree to proper training and education being a requirement to at least make one step closer to reducing a remote % of gun related crimes?

I think it should be a recommendation that all gun owners pursue training, but I don't think it should bar people from owning.
Once again, OUR GOVERNMENT does not play that role in society, if yours does, good for you if you like it. I don't like it, and wont' stand for such an egregious attempt at removing individual rights to competent defense.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready That wasn't valuable to the context of what you are arguing. Its obviously assembled in an anti-gun nation to keep the populace from thinking about the issue.

Oh well excuse me all to hell, I didn't realize.... you know, considdering your own reports do the exact thing defending your side... come on now, don't be silly.

It doesn't matter what side it is leaning towards.... if the information provided is true.... it's true.

There are many sources out there, odd how we don't find each others sources credible, isn't it?

Hmmmm..... my source, which comes directly from the government of Canada, whom would have most of the available studies available to them as your own country's government, isn't as credible or less then the one you provided of a select few examples of where a gun actually worked in said situations?

No such thing. Things are either logical, and without contradiction, or illogical, riddles with contradiction.

But see, I have yet to contradict my own logic. And besides, what one person thinks is logical, may not be logical to someone else, based on their own experiences, knowlege and education on the matter. Logic is subjective and trying to enforce one's own logic onto someone else is no different then forcing an opinion.

Your arguments are riddled with contradiction, therefore, fail to meet the bar of logic. Next.

Bzzzz, Wrong... You have yet to point out any valid contradictions in my posts, while on the flip side, I have pointed out multiple contradictions and hypocracies in your own comments which you used to defend your side. If I have contradictions and hypocracy in my posts, then you have as well in ♠♠♠♠'s

On the contrary, my street is doing just fine.

Wow, my street as well as many others around my street are not just doing fine, but also feel generally safe..... what does that tell you in coparison?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Osborn On the contrary, my street is doing just fine.

The argument they're making (at least as far as I can tell) is that while it is your right to possess a gun, you cannot prove it is directly improving your safety. If one is simply lucky and never has their home broken into, is never mugged, etc and they don't possess a gun, clearly the gun isn't the factor that changed anything. Citizens without guns who do not end up dealing with crime are the control for this experiment.

Also, guns do not PREVENT crime. The largest correlations between someone committing a crime is low intelligence/low education/low socioeconomic status. Not whether or not the person they just assaulted, robbed, burglarized, etc, did or did not possess a gun. In fact chances are they didn't have a clue.

Really it's a matter of where you live (areas prone to crime or not) and luck. The gun is merely a tool that you can use to increase your chance of survival, should you be awake and in your home should someone try to harm you. It doesn't prevent this from happening though. Just gives you more options.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius I see a flaw, I'm pointing it out..... it's not like you guys even brought up a solution to these continual problems of shootings, except to add more guns to the equation.... pssh, good luck with that one.

The movie Harrison Bergeron (based on a Kurt Vonnegut short story) has an excellent solution: instead of fighting crime, fight criminals.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Chancellor There is absolutely no evidence that psychiatry and psychology have ever cured anyone. They are dubious at best. Can a psychiatrist tell what's wrong? - By Michael Brus - Slate Magazine * Is Psychology a science? Psychology - Science or Religion?

Tom Cruise? Is that you?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready You aren't using logic, because you obviously don't understand logic can't have CONTRADICTION. Your entire argument is RIDDLED with contradiction. Go look up the meaning of logic Prax, and stop wasting peoples time.

Do it your damn self... while you're at it... look up hypocracy too, because I think you require further education into that before you can apply these things to what I am saying.

My side is proven out everyday, when a person uses an arm to defend themselves.

And mine is as well when someone does without.

Check out the source I provided. THAT IS A FACTUAL SOURCE.

Just as so-called biased as my own apparently... so irrelevent based on your "Logic"

When you said firearms had no role in defense in the hands of private individuals.

Is that a quote or are you just continuing to throw more words into my mouth? I figured you were more mature then this.

No, the PROVEN MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF DEFENSE, against all forms of aggression known to man, natural or man made.

Bzzz wrong.... but whatever... continue on with no evidence proving this. I'm sure I've heard other's such as martial arts experts and the sort have different views on this.... oh but I suppose they're also illogical.

Just because you say something, doesn't make it true, sorry to say.

Then you don't express yourself well.

Perhaps I didn't express that in the first place nor have I still?

By denying individual arms play a role in defense, you are removing the most sensible and effective option to defense.

If you think that's the most sensible and effective.... oh well.

I think it should be a recommendation that all gun owners pursue training, but I don't think it should bar people from owning. Once again, OUR GOVERNMENT does not play that role in society, if yours does, good for you if you like it. I don't like it, and wont' stand for such an egregious attempt at removing individual rights to competent defense.

Well at least here you understand the difference in our societies and what is logical to each of us..... all I'm saying is if this is the mentality you wish to hold true to, and I am not saying 100% it is right or wrong.... just expect more of these situations to occur in your society, as there has been nothing to solve this from occuring in the future again.

If everybody starts to load up their guns as you suggest, then with the same logic of not having a gun in the first place, the shooter would upgrade to bombs in order to take everybody out before they shoot him.... no solution is perfect... and I never said a straight out ban on firearms should occur, which has never been my position.

There isn't an all out ban here in Canada either... but there is a bit of control over the system so that it doesn't turn into what I considder, out of control.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: GHook93 I have seen people seem a hell of a lot better after they have taken some anti-depression drugs. And ADHD doesn't make you prone to killing people like depression does!

And I've seen people a hell of a lot better after they've stopped feeling sorry for themselves, stopped focusing on themselves and, thereby, gave up their pride. As for so-called ADHD, there was a time when the kid with ADHD was nothing more than the class clown. I've read numerous reports from teachers who have said about particular students that supposedly had ADHD, "Responds well to structure and discipline."

[Osborn F Enready]

Chaos said: It doesn't prevent this from happening though. Just gives you more options.

That has been pretty much my whole argument, has it not?

Prax, let it suffice to say that you and I agree to disagree.

Also, this quote may have forever labeled you in my eyes......until you admit it is pure BS.

You said:

Logic is subjective and trying to enforce one's own logic onto someone else is no different then forcing an opinion.

Please don't address me on this issue Prax, I don't want to debate you if you can't recognize logic isn't subjective.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Tom Cruise? Is that you?

Even Tom Cruise is capable of being right about one thing once in his life.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready That has been pretty much my whole argument, has it not?

And it's flawed..... well with more options for defense, why not allow bombs, personal landmines for your back yard, tell you what..... you got get yourself an M1A2 and I'll get an L2.... you know.... for our defense of course..... exactly where do you draw the line?

A knife is better then a fist.
A gun is better then a knife.
A tank is better then a gun.

Also, this quote may have forever labeled you in my eyes......until you admit it is pure BS. Please don't address me on this issue Prax, I don't want to debate you if you can't recognize logic isn't subjective.

Once apon a time it was logical to think the earth was flat, now it is logical to think that it is spherical.

Once apon a time it was illogical to think we could reach space, break the sound barrier, fly period.... what is logical to some may not be logical to others, and sorry, I don't think in the narrow perspective that it isn't subjective.

I don't expect you to agree or understand, nor do I care, no offense.

And besides, this was already a thread topic in it's own a few months ago.

[mark3748]

Well, for those that don't think armed self defense works:

Burglar Shot In Clinton Township - Detroit News Story - WDIV Detroit
Headlines: Woman fatally shoots boyfriend | woman, police, called - Gazette.com
Man shoots neighbor's dog with shotgun - Northwest Florida Daily News
Top Stories: Store owner fatally shoots would-be robber | store, owner, police - Gazette.com
And that's just the past week.

Last week:
abc13.com: Homeowner shoots and kills suspected burglar in Porter 11/29/07
Gun-toting grandma foils burglars - UPI.com
Bibb homeowner fires gun at suspected burglars, two arrested

And before:
Monroenews.com - Informing Monroe County, Michigan, for more than 180 years
West Valley Burglar Shot By Homeowner | KIMA CBS 29 - News, Weather and Sports - Yakima, WA - Yakima, Washington 29 | Local & Regional
Store owner shoots robber in the head - Cleveland Metro News – The Latest Breaking News, Photos and Stories from The Plain Dealer
Armed intruder fatally shot in E. Liberty - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Boulder man under fire for killing cougar that attacked puppy : Local News : The Rocky Mountain News

[Chris]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Are you purposely trying to be foolish? Kids don't have the right to keep and bear arms, as they are not of majority age.

I think what he was trying to say was, nothing says Christmas like loading up the car with your kids, while at the same time packing a pistola in your belt. I dont think he meant for the kids to be packing, I think he meant you personally, having your kids in the car, and a gun in your underwear. Cause we all carry guns in our underwear 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

[mark3748]

Quote by: Chris Cause we all carry guns in our underwear 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Nah, I have to sleep sometime, then it's on my nightstand.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Chris I think what he was trying to say was, nothing says Christmas like loading up the car with your kids, while at the same time packing a pistola in your belt. I dont think he meant for the kids to be packing, I think he meant you personally, having your kids in the car, and a gun in your underwear. Cause we all carry guns in our underwear 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

In a nutshell, yeah, lol.