Coldest winter in years, Environment Canada warns

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: kubedawg Global warming includes global cooling. If you watched that documentary by that one guy who created the internetz, you would know this. Global cooling is a cause and effect, when you do something, it has an equal and opposite reaction. So if we are causing our globe to keep more heat, causing ice to melt, it causes currents to shift, rain gets to places where it doesn't normally rain, places that rain are dry as hell, and places that are naturally warm are getting hit by extremely cold weather...

Do you have any links or sources that explain this? I'm really trying to understand what you're referring to.


.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Sonart . How about proof that CO2 and methane aren't greenhouse gases, that the greenhouse affect doesn't exist, that we are not increasing the levels of greenhouse gases in the upper atmosphere beyond levels not seen in hundred of millions of years, that arctic and antarctic ice fields, and glaciers worldwide, are not melting at accelerating rates, and that overall global temperatures have not increased over the past 25 years as predicted, based on anthropogenic greenhouse gas projections. Can you prove that? .

Glaciers have been melting for 50,000 years as overall global temperatures have been increasing the same.
I'm still trying to understand how increased hurricane activity and decreased hurricane activity are both proofs of global warming.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: BobbyO Glaciers have been melting for 50,000 years as overall global temperatures have been increasing the same.

Duhhh! Y'think? Gee, Bobby, why don't you inform the world's scientific community of this revelation and I'm sure they'll all slap their forheads and declare, "Gosh, why didn't WE think of that?"

Yep, with the end of the last Ice Age 10 to 8,000 years ago, by golly, a lot of glaciers melted. No doubt about it. But now, 8,000 years later, we SHOULD be in a COOLING trend, leading back over the next 25,000 years or so to the next Ice Age. But we're not...we're suddenly warming, and in geological terms, 200 years is VERY sudden.



And the only explanation -- natural cycles, solar cycles, sun spots, changes in magnetic fields, orbital shifts, God sneezing -- the ONLY explanation that accurately predicts what's currently happening is climate forcing due to human created greenhouse gases.

Quote by: BobbyO I'm still trying to understand how increased hurricane activity and decreased hurricane activity are both proofs of global warming.

Who said anything about increased AND decreased hurricanes. Global Warming means warmer ocean surface temperatures, and since ocean heat is the engine that drives tropical storms - both in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans -- global warming predicts stronger storms.

Number Of Tropical Storms In Recent Past Increasing

Yes, 2007 was very light in tropical storm activity in the northern hemisphere. Whatever the reasons, I don't much care. They'll be back.

.

[rmnunez]

I don't think we're getting more storms now than before, just that we are monitoring these better so know of more of them. Fifty years ago there could be a hurricane or typhoon, but unless it hit an important place where there were lots of people we wouldn't know.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: rmnunez Fifty years ago there could be a hurricane or typhoon, but unless it hit an important place where there were lots of people we wouldn't know.

Science is aware of this difficiency in the record, RM...

--"Counting tropical storms that occurred before the advent of aircraft and satellites relies on ships logs and hurricane landfalls, making many believe that the numbers of historic tropical storms in the Atlantic are seriously undercounted."--

but there are ways to figure it out.

--"However, a statistical model based on the climate factors that influence Atlantic tropical storm activity shows that the estimates currently used are only slightly below modeled numbers and indicate that the numbers of tropical storms in the recent past are increasing, according to researchers."--

Here's one method, as reported by a global-warming SKEPTIC. Note that he concludes...

"There are many lessons from this incredible reconstruction. First, it is obvious that large hurricanes have impacted southern Georgia throughout the past 220 years, and some of the storms were larger than any storm in recent years. But more importantly, the record shows that some periods are active, others are quiet, and that this has been the case for a long time into the past (i.e. prior to any large-scale anthropogenic climate influences). This means that there is now more reason to believe that variations during the 20th century in the frequency and intensity of Atlantic tropical cyclones are very likely to have a significant natural component to them."

Yet staring right at him is a clear, overall rise in hurricane activity since the '70s,

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Sonart . Duhhh! Y'think? Gee, Bobby, why don't you inform the world's scientific community of this revelation and I'm sure they'll all slap their forheads and declare, "Gosh, why didn't WE think of that?" Yep, with the end of the last Ice Age 10 to 8,000 years ago, by golly, a lot of glaciers melted. No doubt about it. But now, 8,000 years later, we SHOULD be in a COOLING trend, leading back over the next 25,000 years or so to the next Ice Age. But we're not...we're suddenly warming, and in geological terms, 200 years is VERY sudden. And the only explanation -- natural cycles, solar cycles, sun spots, changes in magnetic fields, orbital shifts, God sneezing -- the ONLY explanation that accurately predicts what's currently happening is climate forcing due to human created greenhouse gases. Who said anything about increased AND decreased hurricanes. Global Warming means warmer ocean surface temperatures, and since ocean heat is the engine that drives tropical storms - both in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans -- global warming predicts stronger storms. Number Of Tropical Storms In Recent Past Increasing Yes, 2007 was very light in tropical storm activity in the northern hemisphere. Whatever the reasons, I don't much care. They'll be back. .

Your own charts indicate a sudden temperature increase is not unusual.

Yep, hurricanes will be back. And the sun will rise again in the east. yet somehow I think when the hurricanes do "come back" the geniuses will yet again cite them as proof of global warming, and when they are "light" it won't matter much for the theory of global warming.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: BobbyO Your own charts indicate a sudden temperature increase is not unusual.

It shows a whole lot more than that, Bobby. Jeez, why am I sitting here arguing with a 6 yr-old? I guess the good thing about that is that you'll still be around in 50 years, watching it all unfold.


.


.

[icurhuman2]

I wouldn't worry too much about human-activity-induced climate change, we're all about to run out of the fuel that's promoting it. Of course the double whammy of peak-energy followed by climate change might make survival of our species a debatable point.
It now appears that the economic model of boundless expansion is going to die a timely death, along with the untimely deaths of a large portion of the planet's human population.
There is no chance we'll be able to refit the world's economy with anything that looks like a reliable alternate energy before the wheels fall off. Peak-oil is likely here now and there'll be no alternative but to scale down our ambitions, this will mean economic collapse. Of course any economic collapse will spread the decline out a bit further with the demand-destruction that follows, but not by much.
Heavily industrialised countries will suffer the most, and more quickly than others, and this will trump any sort of climate accord the selfish wealthier nations might fear (the USA for instance).
North America might be suffering a stint of above-average cold weather now, but in the future might welcome such a warm winter when there's no gas or oil for home heating, or the absence of food due to the lack of transport from the farm to the dinner plate.

[Nono]

I think you're right, ike. If there's anyone around to assess things, they'll probably conclude that the point of no return had been reached by the beginning of the 21st century, sheer numbers of energy-happy, tech-crazy human beings being the main factor.

Australia is nothing to crow about in this respect, by the way, as Tim Flannery makes clear in his illuminating book The weather makers.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: icurhuman It now appears that the economic model of boundless expansion is going to die a timely death, along with the untimely deaths of a large portion of the planet's human population. There is no chance we'll be able to refit the world's economy with anything that looks like a reliable alternate energy before the wheels fall off. Peak-oil is likely here now and there'll be no alternative but to scale down our ambitions, this will mean economic collapse. Of course any economic collapse will spread the decline out a bit further with the demand-destruction that follows, but not by much.

Interesting points, icurhuman. I'm reminded of world population charts I've been seeing...



Everyone seems to be predicting that human population will begin to level out... well,... any day now. (Along with the not-quite-confirmed "peak oil") How they arrived at this predicted "leveling off" I'm unclear. Anyone know?

Global warming deniers seem tied to the concept of infinite economic growth. Is infinite economic growth tied to infinite population growth? Is either possible? Is the concept of economic stasis possible?

.

[BobbyO]

Quote by: Sonart . Interesting points, icurhuman. I'm reminded of world population charts I've been seeing... Everyone seems to be predicting that human population will begin to level out... well,... any day now. (Along with the not-quite-confirmed "peak oil") How they arrived at this predicted "leveling off" I'm unclear. Anyone know? Global warming deniers seem tied to the concept of infinite economic growth. Is infinite economic growth tied to infinite population growth? Is either possible? Is the concept of economic stasis possible? .

The same way they have drawn conclusions of man-made global warming... cherry-picking and claiming all facts can be used to prove the theory- even contrary facts.

The concept of economic statis is not possible. Either one advances or degrades.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: BobbyO The concept of economic statis is not possible. Either one advances or degrades

Stasis, Bobby. "the state of equilibrium or inactivity caused by opposing equal forces."

Quote by: BobbyO The same way they have drawn conclusions of man-made global warming... cherry-picking and claiming all facts can be used to prove the theory- even contrary facts.

Not exactly, Bobby. Global Warming is happening... now ...just as predicted. Well... actually faster than predicted. Human population, on the other hand, shows only minimal signs of leveling off, reflecting efforts in many countries to reduce birth rates.

.