Coldest winter in years, Environment Canada warns

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Chris The only thing I have to add is Gore may have a $300000 electric bill and live in the lap of luxury,...

Gore pays more because he pays extra for Green Power...

"...a program called Green Power Switch, which is run through the public Tennessee Valley Authority. Green Power Switch supplies energy from renewable sources to its members.

Kreider added that a renovation of the Gores' house is underway to make it more energy efficient, an update that will include the addition of solar panels."

So Gore is obviously putting his money where his mouth is.

Quote by: Chris ...but that doesnt mean he is wrong about global warming.

And then there's that.

Quote by: Praxius See, it's not that I don't think a bad thing is on our way or that it's not going to happen.... on the contrary, I believe something much worse then global warming is coming and there's not a thing any of us can do about it anymore except ride the wave and learn our lessons for the next time.... you know.... so long as we don't make ourselves extinct. But then again, we are like cockroaches, hard to kill and such.

That's where you're wrong. Perhaps we can't do much in the SHORT TERM to change events, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything in our power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM.

Otherwise, you're simply advocating a self-fulfilling prophecy... making ourselves, and most life on earth, extinct.

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[Real Thing 2007]

You're right about the vacillating predictions, Praxius. When I was a teen, we were being warned of the coming ice age...

Regardless of the accuracy of "scientific concensus" at any given point in time, it ought to be self-evident that humanity collectively is capable of having a profound negative impact on the global ecosystem - yes? Therefore, it is rational and in our own self-interests to minimize our personal impact on the ecosystem. Would you agree?

[Real Thing 2007]

SONART - Please refrain from calling people "deniers". That is an intentionally derogatory term, implying "heretics". It's quite ironic that you would use such terminology on a forum with such devoted atheist users...I'm surprised they don't all take you to task for separating people into "deniers" and "true believers". I find the use of that terminology, in this context, personally offensive - because I'm a Gaian and a long-standing member of an Earth religion community. I'm not an advocate of any kind of eco-inquisition, but when environmental activists behave like they are my community ends up taking the rap & the crap for their outbursts.

Furthermore, the tone of some of your postings seems unnecessarily harsh and antagonistic to me, and unlikely to encourage others to take personal responsibility for their own "eco-footprint". Please give that some thought.

Quote by: Sonart That's where you're wrong. Perhaps we can't do much in the SHORT TERM to change events, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything in our power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM.

I thought this was the most intelligent thing you said, in this thread - but I'd like to suggest some modifications. How about:

"Perhaps I can't do much in the SHORT TERM to change events, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be doing everything in my power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM."

Are you driving around in a gas-powered car, Sonart? It's so much easier to point fingers of blame at others, calling them "deniers" and lashing out at them, than it is to take the right actions in our own lives.

Isn't it?

G-Roy

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Real Thing That is an intentionally derogatory term, implying "heretics".

Duh. Y'think? They're not heretics, they're fifth columnists for the oil, gas, coal, auto and energy lobbies and the libertarian Don't-tell-us-what-to-doers, and they're out to subvert efforts to rally Americans to take steps to save ourselves from ourselves.

Quote by: Real Thing SONART - Please refrain from calling people "deniers".

Ummm....No. But thanks for the input.

Quote by: Real Thing Are you driving around in a gas-powered car, Sonart? It's so much easier to point fingers of blame at others, calling them "deniers" and lashing out at them, than it is to take the right actions in our own lives.

I drive a small, fuel efficient four-cylinder... about 34 mph highway, and bicycle on most short trips, I recycle just about everything in my house, from cans to paper to chemicals to plastic bags, I neither air condition nor heat my home, I use low energy lighting throughout and I've xeriscaped my yard to conserve water.

Quote by: Real Thing It's so much easier to point fingers of blame at others, calling them "deniers" and lashing out at them, than it is to take the right actions in our own lives. "...but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be doing everything in my power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM."

The most dangerous thing right now affecting our ability to seek long term solutions is the campaign of denial that's short circuiting the private and political will to find those long term solutions. If Americans remain confused about whether or not there's a problem, they're not going to take the individual steps you've just advocated, and they're not going to pressure government and industry to find the dramatic and, yes, costly solutions necessary to revolutionize how we do things.

So I really don't care what you think of my tone, Thing, since you haven't bothered to take notice of THEIR tone. My posts are for those who -- thanks to the campaign of denial -- remain genuinely unsure.

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[Real Thing 2007]

Quote by: Sonart . Duh. Y'think? They're not heretics, they're fifth columnists for the oil, gas, coal, auto and energy lobbies and the libertarian Don't-tell-us-what-to-doers, and they're out to subvert efforts to rally Americans to take steps to save ourselves from ourselves.

That's preposterous and paranoid.
Of course there are professional propagandists disseminating disinformation about global warming on behalf of oil, gas, coal, auto and energy lobbies - just as there are professional propagandists encouraging hysteria on the subject on behalf of corporations & businesses involved in greenwashing.

But to accuse ordinary folk hanging out in debate forums of being "fifth columnists" for anyone is really over-the-top. My next-door neighbor is skeptical about global warming science - would you suggest that I paint "denier" on her front door? Perhaps she should have to go around wearing a green pentacle to warn everyone that she's secretly an oil company fifth columnist?

The truth is, she's a single mother who works as a cashier 30 blocks from her home. Her skepticism has an element of self-interest to it - with a car she can manage to get her child to and from daycare and herself to and from work, on time. Without more efficient public transit, she couldn't do that. Of course she doesn't want to accept the role her vehicle plays in contributing to degradation of the ecosystem.

Quote by: Sonart I drive a small, fuel efficient four-cylinder... about 34 mph highway, and bicycle on most short trips, I recycle just about everything in my house, from cans to paper to chemicals to plastic bags, I neither air condition nor heat my home, I use low energy lighting throughout and I've xeriscaped my yard to conserve water.

Those are all quite admirable steps to take, and I congratulate you on them! But...you are still driving a gas-powered vehicle. What's your level of income/expenditure? Are you contributing to primary production by purchasing new durables, or are you buying things like your computer second-hand? There are certainly people living more "eco-righteously" than you, so you might want to set your own house in order before setting out to judge the rest of the population.

Quote by: Sonart The most dangerous thing right now affecting our ability to seek long term solutions is the campaign of denial that's short circuiting the private and political will to find those long term solutions. If Americans remain confused about whether or not there's a problem, they're not going to take the individual steps you've just advocated, and they're not going to pressure government and industry to find the dramatic and, yes, costly solutions necessary to revolutionize how we do things.

Nonsense. You obviously aren't feeling confused, but you're still driving a gas-powered vehicle. Why is that? Perhaps because you're still addicted to your own conveniences and comforts - even if you are a step or two ahead of some others in taking responsibility for your own actions? That's the big obstacle - getting over our own addiction to our comforts and conveniences, not "being confused" about the validity of global warming science.

Quote by: Sonart So I really don't care what you think of my tone, Thing, since you haven't bothered to take notice of THEIR tone. My posts are for those who -- thanks to the campaign of denial -- remain genuinely unsure.

Very little escapes my notice. As you are the one claiming to be a champion of the environment, however, I'm principally concerned with how your verbal behaviour makes a movement I'm involved in look to the general public. I do want you to confront mistaken concepts, I'm just asking you to be a bit more tactful when you do that.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Sonart That's where you're wrong. Perhaps we can't do much in the SHORT TERM to change events, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything in our power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM.

Why?

IF I accept that "global warming" exists and IF I accept that human beings are the proximate cause of such "global warming", so what?

Prove to me that I, living as a middle-class American firmly in the grip of the snow belt, will be harmed if the predictions of global warming alarmists come to bear.

Also, speaking of the snow belt... could someone come over and shovel all of this global warming out of my driveway??? We got hit really hard this week...

[Praxius]

Quote by: Sonart That's where you're wrong. Perhaps we can't do much in the SHORT TERM to change events, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything in our power right now to reverse things in the LONG TERM. Otherwise, you're simply advocating a self-fulfilling prophecy... making ourselves, and most life on earth, extinct.

That's another thing, since I was quite young I was quite a promoter for recycling back when most didn't know what it meant.

For most of my life I have probably been more environmentally friendly then most here in the forums are today.

If there is such a thing as global warming, I'm certainly not to blame, and where I live I won't be feeling much of the effects. At the worst, flooding... whoopie do.

Quite honestly, I no longer have any sympathy for humanity when it comes to the environment. Everything everybody is bitching and worrying about today is all old news and action should have been taken a long time ago.

In my opinion, the rest of humanity can suffer and die at the hands of nature and our so-called pollution for all I care.

So quit your complaining and hopes that you can change anything, because it's been too late for too long.... suck it up, ride the big wave of destruction like everybody else and take responsibility for what we all have been doing for the last number of decades in humanity.

At least I already accepted we're screwed.

And no, this isn't some self-proclaimed prophecy.... this is the observations that not just myself, but older scientists who have been studying this all in the late 70's - early 80's whom have all came to the same conclusions as what I am stating.

Being too late to change anything now is indeed true.... trying to reduce our pollution for the future is fools gold, as by the time all the climate changing is completed, there's not going to be much left to work on.

Oh yeah... and we're still below our normal temperatures now.... what's it been now? Two weeks straight? Sure only two weeks and isn't much to go by at this stage for this year alone.... but that's how you get accurate results and accurate studies. Start them yourself and record what happens.

By the end of this winter, I am sure we will know if the original report in this thread was true or not.... so far evidence is point to it being true in what they state.

My comment on Global Warming was my own opinion on side reports..... and has nothing really to do with the original report, hence all this BS about global warming is way off topic to begin with.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Real Thing That's preposterous and paranoid.

No, it's not. I have posted more than enough evidence on this board regarding the ongoing campaign by the likes of the American Petroleum Institute and the American Enterprise Institute and their efforts to muddy the waters of climate change, by paying scientists and opinion makers to suggest there's more questions about the reality of global warming than there actually is.

When folks like Praxius and brien make the same arguments, they are, whether intentionally or not, playing into the hands of the denial campaign.

That's not paranoia, that's proven fact.

Quote by: Real Thing But to accuse ordinary folk hanging out in debate forums of being "fifth columnists" for anyone is really over-the-top.

Intentional propogandist or naive dupe.... take your pick. The effect is the same.

Quote by: Real Thing Those are all quite admirable steps to take, and I congratulate you on them! But...you are still driving a gas-powered vehicle. What's your level of income/expenditure? Are you contributing to primary production by purchasing new durables, or are you buying things like your computer second-hand?

I'm typing this now on a second-hand laptop, an HP pavilion ze4600, having recycled my previous electronics at the local Universal Waste recycling center. And the fact that I may or may not be achieving YOUR expectations of a perfect green lifestyle does not change my right to speak truth about global warming.

In fact, if perfection is your criteria, no one will EVER address the problem. Is that what you want? People need to start taking steps now... even baby steps ...and that won't happen until people are convinced that the problem is real.

Quote by: Real Thing Nonsense. You obviously aren't feeling confused, but you're still driving a gas-powered vehicle. Why is that? Perhaps because you're still addicted to your own conveniences and comforts - even if you are a step or two ahead of some others in taking responsibility for your own actions?

Once again, how does the fact that I merely drive a "fuel efficient" car rather than "a hybrid" disqualify me from speaking truth about global warming.

That's the fascinating thing about conservation... if everyone in America took ONLY THOSE STEPS that I have, we'd cut our energy use by 25% or more. Following the two '70s oil boycotts, by 1980 Americans had cut our oil import by 25% by simple conservation alone.

Quote by: Real Thing Very little escapes my notice. As you are the one claiming to be a champion of the environment, however, I'm principally concerned with how your verbal behaviour makes a movement I'm involved in look to the general public.

Interesting... you have no problem with posters who would have us ignore serious environmental problems, but gawd forbid that my tone in championing the environment should offend your delicate sensibilities.

I'm so pleased you have your priorities so squared away.

Quote by: tivodan Prove to me that I, living as a middle-class American firmly in the grip of the snow belt, will be harmed if the predictions of global warming alarmists come to bear.

Oh, I can't, tivo... not as someone "firmly in the grip of the snow belt", at least not for the next couple of generations.

Nah, in the near future it will be the less developed world that will suffer from climate change... crop losses, desertification, drought, flooding, etc. etc. and start dying in the millions... or mass emigrating to the more developed world. But that's fine with you, right? Not your problem.

As to how global warming might affect you or your grand-children in the long term, here, see for yourself.

Quote by: Praxius If there is such a thing as global warming, I'm certainly not to blame, and where I live I won't be feeling much of the effects. At the worst, flooding... whoopie do.

No one person is to blame, Praxius... it's the now 6 billion people, all living on the burning of fossil fuels, that's to blame.

Was that tactful enough for your sensitive nature, Real Thing?

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[Nono]

Quote by: Praxius ... just because we don't live way up north or in the parries, doesn't mean we don't get bad snow storms....

Well you seemed so impressed by a blizzard. I figured you'd probably never seen one before.

Quote by: tivodan Prove to me that I, living as a middle-class American firmly in the grip of the snow belt, will be harmed if the predictions of global warming alarmists come to bear.

You're such a master debater, t: so convincing. It's like demanding "proof" that you'll come to harm if you go for a sex holiday to Bagdad. (Jeez, where should I start?)

Global warming "alarmists" include the vast majority of the scientific community, people -- believe it or not -- who are even better informed than you are.

But don't worry, you too will wake up sooner or later.

[Nono]

Quote by: Real Thing ... "true believers" ...

Thing, once you've been here for a while, you'll notice that it's the people like tivodan (above) who are totally faith-based: true disbelievers as it were.

As Sidney Smith, 19th-century canon of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote to Lord John Russell:

You say you are not convinced by my pamphlet. I am afraid that I am a very arrogant person, but I do assure you that in the fondest moments of self-conceit, the idea of convincing a Russell that he was wrong never came across my mind. Euclid would have had a bad chance with you if you had happened to have formed an opinion that the interior angles of a triangle were not equal to two right angles. The more poor Euclid demonstrated, the more you would not have been convinced.

[bishop]

the whole damn country is raining.. cold, icy rain to.. *yay*

BlueBox Video Player - weather.com

[Milton Bradley]

Since the Earths climate is still oscilating from the birth of the atmosphere ( at least that's the official story ), how can one claim to know if we are participating in any measured warming? Particularly in light of the fact that we barely know the Suns contributions now, with all of our scientific knowledge of how that system works.


There is no absolute known stable "state" for the atmosphere, ever. How then, can one go stick the thermometer in, and proclaim, it's done?

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Milton Bradley Since the Earths climate is still oscillating from the birth of the atmosphere ( at least that's the official story ), how can one claim to know if we are participating in any measured warming?

Because, Milton, researchers have factored in those oscillations, along with solar events and cycles, orbital variations, magnetic field changes, historic fluctuations and everything else people have speculated and they do NOT account for the current warming anomoly,

The ONLY thing that can account for the current warming is the measured increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases, and we know for a fact where those increases have come from.

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[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Sonart Oh, I can't, tivo... not as someone "firmly in the grip of the snow belt", at least not for the next couple of generations. Nah, in the near future it will be the less developed world that will suffer from climate change... crop losses, desertification, drought, flooding, etc. etc. and start dying in the millions... or mass emigrating to the more developed world. But that's fine with you, right? Not your problem.

Correct. Not my problem. Furthermore, all problems the third world is experiencing now.

As to how global warming might affect you or your grand-children in the long term, here, see for yourself.

I don't see anything there that will affect me. Rising sea levels? All of the Netherlands is under sea level, I'm sure we could do the same for places like NYC. Hurricanes? I live in the north.

This is the problem environmentalists are going to have. They're so concerned with talking about changes they've forgotten to tell us why we need to change.

Quote by: Nono You're such a master debater, t: so convincing. It's like demanding "proof" that you'll come to harm if you go for a sex holiday to Bagdad. (Jeez, where should I start?) Global warming "alarmists" include the vast majority of the scientific community, people -- believe it or not -- who are even better informed than you are. But don't worry, you too will wake up sooner or later.

So I ask for proof, and you make trite statements and insults. Is that supposed to convince me? I'll take your answer to mean "No, I have no proof of anything that will harm you. As you were."

[Praxius]

Quote by: Nono Well you seemed so impressed by a blizzard. I figured you'd probably never seen one before.

Oh no, it's not that I never seen one before... it's how they dropped on us so early before we're even in the winter season and it's just continuing. (AKA: not a freak occurence it appears)

Normally in the city here once is snows, it's usually followed with rain and it's all washed away (In the last 6 years I've been in here now) Now they claimed it was going to be followed with rain, but it was just a little freezing rain and nothing which washed it all away.

I guess they're calling for another snow storm here tomorrow.... weee.

sorry, it's just been a few years since I lived in the crossfire zone and here it's always been rain and semi warm, Therefore there wasn't much of a white christmas for a few years. Now it seems no matter where you go, there's snow.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: tivodan Furthermore, all problems the third world is experiencing now.

Nah... just wait. You're gonna love it.

Quote by: tivodan Correct. Not my problem. I don't see anything there that will affect me. Rising sea levels? All of the Netherlands is under sea level, I'm sure we could do the same for places like NYC. Hurricanes? I live in the north.

Attaboy, tivo. Ever the compassionate citizen... until the refugees start invading your little corner of Eden.

Quote by: tivodan This is the problem environmentalists are going to have. They're so concerned with talking about changes they've forgotten to tell us why we need to change.

I just gave you a massive list, which you callously checked off as 'nope, doesn't affect me, nope, doesn't affect me, nope, doesn't affect me..."

Well, the migration of disease will affect you, dramatic changes in agriculture will affect you, drought and increased wildfire may affect you, mass emigration from affected countries will affect you and, if left completely unchecked, a likely mass-extinction will likely affect you.

But heck, that's a hundred years off. Why should you care, right?

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[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Sonart . Attaboy, tivo. Ever the compassionate citizen... until the refugees start invading your little corner of Eden.

Refugees from where? Are they going to swim the Atlantic? Good luck with that.

Well, the migration of disease will affect you,

I don't know of any disease that suddenly "migrates" to my climate if my climate becomes a degree warmer. Are there any diseases in, say, North Carolina, that aren't where I live?

dramatic changes in agriculture will affect you,

Yes, they will. The area where I live would have a longer growing season and benefit greatly. Hang on while I go idle my car in my driveway.

drought and increased wildfire may affect you,

I live in one of the most precipitous cities in North America, and we have a fire department. I don't get why a slight increase in temperature is going to magically make things burst into flames.

mass emigration from affected countries will affect you

Again, are they swimming the Atlantic? Thinking it will ever get so bad as to cause "mass emigration" is just silly.

and, if left completely unchecked, a likely mass-extinction will likely affect you.

Mass extinction? You're being ridiculous. Considering human beings currently thrive in a climate that is, on average, 30 degrees warmer than the average temperature where I live, I don't see how raising the average temperature 2 degrees (beyond the most ridiculous global warming estimates) will affect anything.

Again, this is the challenge of the global-warming alarmist - to make their warnings of doom and gloom "play in Peoria" (to borrow a phrase from theater).

[brien]

You seem to think that ignoring facts is the same as not being a follower. All you've defined yourself as is an ignorant self-obsessed fool.

You seem to be consusing me w/ Al Bore there Sonart.

Bottom line once again, you blindly follow the pied piper. So be it. Go for it. People like you need heroes and prophets, I don't. People like me seek the truth from humble people who live their convictions. The people I know, the work I do, and the lifestyle I live, all speak for themselves. We don't need greedy leaders and hypcritical self serving political hacks to show us the way. People like you obviously do. So be it. Your smug elite ad hominen attacks upon me also speak for themselves. I could care less about what "names" and which labels you call me. Since you can't argue logic, you have resorted to attacking me. Ok....

From Bob Dylan:

Most Likely you go your way and I'll go mine.

You say you love me And you're thinkin' of me, But you know you could be wrong. You say you told me That you wanna hold me, But you know you're not that strong. I just can't do what I done before, I just can't beg you any more. I'm gonna let you pass And I'll go last. Then time will tell just who fell And who's been left behind, When you go your way and I go mine. You say you disturb me And you don't deserve me, But you know sometimes you lie. You say you're shakin' And you're always achin', But you know how hard you try. Sometimes it gets so hard to care, It can't be this way ev'rywhere. And I'm gonna let you pass, Yes, and I'll go last. Then time will tell just who fell And who's been left behind, When you go your way and I go mine. The judge, he holds a grudge, He's gonna call on you. But he's badly built And he walks on stilts, Watch out he don't fall on you. You say you're sorry For tellin' stories That you know I believe are true. You say ya got some Other kinda lover And yes, I believe you do. You say my kisses are not like his, But this time I'm not gonna tell you why that is. I'm just gonna let you pass, Yes, and I'll go last. Then time will tell who fell And who's been left behind, When you go your way and I go mine

Yes, Sonart, you are the Guru and the Cat's meow. You are the hero and the prophet along with AL Gore & company. You have all of the knowledge and answers. But keep in mind:

time will tell, just who fell, and who's been left behind, when you go your way and I go mine.

[brien]

Quote by: Chris Brien and Sonart, Lets try and bring the level of discussion back to good debate instead of attacks. The only thing I have to add is Gore may have a $300000 electric bill and live in the lap of luxury, but that doesnt mean he is wrong about global warming. Also Gore is far removed from fake hollywood actors. He is a politician and used his power and influence to bring global warming into the mainstream.