Coldest winter in years, Environment Canada warns

[brien]

Good for you, brien. Selfish, thoughtless, immoral and proud of it. Let the world go to hell, no one's gonna tell YOU what to do, are they. You go, boy... stand by your principles... or lack of them.

I stated I will do what I will do. You sir, seem to parrot the popular vernacular of the mindless robot. I like my choice better.

So you go out and pretend to save the world by heaping loads of guilt upon your fellow citizens while your heroes fly around the world using more jet fuel in one trip than I will ever use in a lifetime. You kiss their ass while they live in mansions using more energy in one month than I use in one year. And you call me selfish, immoral and thoughtless????

Good for you Sonart.

You sir, seem to have a messed up thought process.

[EnragedParrot]

Quote by: Praxius There you go, your own quote proves my point... and old Canadian Winter.... if Global Warming did exist, and warming was a continual thing, then we wouldn't be getting an Old Canadian Winter, now would we?

Check this out: If global warming didn't exist, we wouldn't be having 80ºF + temperatures here in Texas this Winter. It just couldn't be possible. Therefore, global warming necessarily is occurring.

The two problems with your argument are: confusing weather with climate, and confusing Canada with the world. What temperatures in Canada do over one Winter or one year has little effect on the long term trend.

Looking at the average global temperatures over the past three decades, it is quite obvious that there is a definite warming trend.

[Praxius]

Quote by: EnragedParrot Check this out: If global warming didn't exist, we wouldn't be having 80ºF + temperatures here in Texas this Winter. It just couldn't be possible. Therefore, global warming necessarily is occurring. The two problems with your argument are: confusing weather with climate, and confusing Canada with the world. What temperatures in Canada do over one Winter or one year has little effect on the long term trend.

I don't confuse weather with climate, the two are connected to the hip in relation.

And yet you don't see your hypocracy in your own logic. You first give me an example of Texas warming up and claim therefore "It Must Be Global Warming" ~ Yet right afterwards, you tell me my example of Canada is not the rest of the world therefore it can't be related globally..... so exactly how can you contradict yourself like this without even realizing it?

I mean if you really want to nit pick, Texas is one State, Canada being the second largest country in the world next to Russia and affected from coast to coast, which is one entire country being effected..... I think the larger example outweighs the smaller example... but this is not the point I am trying to make.

What is happening in Texas warming up, and also Canada cooling down is called Climate Change Not Global Warming.

Looking at the average global temperatures over the past three decades, it is quite obvious that there is a definite warming trend.

yeah in the last 30 years..... what about 80 years ago? What about 150 years ago? What about 1000 years ago?

You guys all freak and worry about humans polluting and killing the planet and thus in turn, killing ourselves..... but we are only burning exactly what the earth has created and what has been in the atmosphere for eons.

Back in the creation of the Earth, it was all volcanic and I imagine the entire atmosphere was blacked out and life wasn't very promising.... but life continues on, life evolves, and it has always been about the survival of the fittest.

I'm not disputing that there's going to be major flooding, major changes of heat and cold across the planet.... I'm just saying this whole Global Warming marketing scam is BS and Al Gore is a hypocrite by his own actions as he preaches. They all know it's climate change and it's going to happen. They know that the level of pollution we have created is only going to speed up what is already coming out way.... but they put a spin on it so that it opens up a bigger market of making our society more healthy.

And who can argue with that? If he and the rest of the scientific community were honest about their wishes in the first place, I would have followed along.... but they blew it into something else and fear mongered the entire world that it's all our fault and we're gonna be screwed unless we do what they say now, and buy into all kinds of their new ideas and inventions. They've been saying it for decades now, they'll keep saying it..... it's their job.

[Muser]

Quote by: EnragedParrot Check this out: If global warming didn't exist, we wouldn't be having 80ºF + temperatures here in Texas this Winter. It just couldn't be possible. Therefore, global warming necessarily is occurring.

Are you trying to say 80ºF+ temps in Texas "this winter" (presumeably meaning Nov and Dec 2007) are unprecedented? Review Houston temps for the entire month of Dec 1978 and report back what you find.

[EnragedParrot]

Quote by: Praxius And yet you don't see your hypocracy in your own logic. You first give me an example of Texas warming up and claim therefore "It Must Be Global Warming" ~ Yet right afterwards, you tell me my example of Canada is not the rest of the world therefore it can't be related globally..... so exactly how can you contradict yourself like this without even realizing it?

That was my point. The fact that we're having an unusually warm Winter in Texas is no more evidence for global warming than a cold Winter in Canada is evidence against.

What is happening in Texas warming up, and also Canada cooling down is called Climate Change Not Global Warming.

What's happening in texas and Canada this Winter is simply noise over the trend. it has no relevance to long term global temperatures whatsoever.

yeah in the last 30 years..... what about 80 years ago? What about 150 years ago? What about 1000 years ago?

No problem.

80 years:



150 years:



(Both of the above are from the HADCRUT3 dataset.)

1000 years (actually 2000, since it was easier to find):



(From the IPCC AR4, Chapter 6, "Paleoclimate," Figure 6.10)

[Praxius]

Quote by: EnragedParrot That was my point. The fact that we're having an unusually warm Winter in Texas is no more evidence for global warming than a cold Winter in Canada is evidence against. What's happening in texas and Canada this Winter is simply noise over the trend. it has no relevance to long term global temperatures whatsoever.

Then why did you state.....

Therefore, global warming necessarily is occurring.

.....If the evidence and information you provided does not prove this?

No problem. 80 years:

uh huh....

150 years:

Lot's of uncertainty there, but I'll let this one slide.....

(Both of the above are from the HADCRUT3 dataset.)

That would explain the similarities between the two.

1000 years (actually 2000, since it was easier to find): (From the IPCC AR4, Chapter 6, "Paleoclimate," Figure 6.10)

Ah, now with this graph, if you remove the black line and gray curve and look at the overall graph which continues left to right, do you notice the peaks in the 1000AD - 1500AD range and how very similar they are to recent years?

Now granted I imagine there is a margin of error for the predictions of way back then, so let's say that in that area it could be more up or more down from what is shown.

But this graph kinda proves both points that I have been trying to make:

• What we are experiencing now has occured in the past.
• Human influence has sped up this transition and perhaps may have elevated it, but it is still nowhere to the level of a potiential catastrophe compared to what has already occured in the last thousand years or so.

In this graph you can clearly see that before the turn of 1000AD, the trend was still going upward, then gradually drops over the centuries until around 1780 where it begins to increase up the graph once again. Right around 880AD and 1000AD, you can see how it spiked in similarity to today.

Once again to repeat, we have an influence on the climate change that is about to occur, but we are not the be all end all responsible ones who made it happen, as this graph shows that the enviroment balances itself out over each melinia.

Not to mention it should be an obvious that the entire planet would be gradually warming up since the ice age..... I see no major evidence proving we're about to be our arcitects of our own destruction via pollution.

It doesn't hurt to be enviromentally friendly in the future and to change our ways, not just for the enviroment, but also our individual health, and I also feel and agree our pollution has intensified the weather effects of today..... but the worst case I see is that we'll only make what was already coming our way stronger when it comes.... which I feel I am correct in saying any changes we make now will still be far too late to make a difference.... we will be riding out this storm one way or another.

[EnragedParrot]

Quote by: Praxius Then why did you state.....

Sarcasm, my dear Watson, sarcasm.

Ah, now with this graph, if you remove the black line and gray curve and look at the overall graph which continues left to right, do you notice the peaks in the 1000AD - 1500AD range and how very similar they are to recent years?

Yes, the period is known to scientists as the "Mediaval Warm Period."

But you can't just remove the black line, as that represents the entire instrumental temperature record (which shows temperatures for the past 150 years). And the instrumental record clearly shows that the modern warming period has been unprecedented for the last 2000 years of human history, even when you include the uncertainty ranges for the various different reconstructions shown in the graph..

[Sonart]

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Apparently Praxius doesn't WANT to understand, so he's going to misrepresent and misunderstand whatever we put up here. For instance...

Quote by: Praxius The Sahara was much bigger then it is today, oh But I suppose somehow that doesn't count.... get some education. Climates Change, get over it.

"Then" being around 7 thousand years ago, directly following the end of the last Ice Age. Prax simply refuses to accept that desertification is a quantifiable fact, is happening right now, is, like warming itself, accelerating, and can be directly attributed to man, both through deforestation and global warming, and that it's not explainable by any other reason. As long as there's any other excuses that he can cling to -- no matter how many times it's been rebutted -- he will.

Quote by: brien I stated I will do what I will do. You sir, seem to parrot the popular vernacular of the mindless robot. I like my choice better.

Your choice obviously being to do nothing.

Quote by: brien So you go out and pretend to save the world by heaping loads of guilt upon your fellow citizens while your heroes fly around the world using more jet fuel in one trip than I will ever use in a lifetime. You kiss their ass while they live in mansions using more energy in one month than I use in one year. And you call me selfish, immoral and thoughtless????

Number one, brien, none of those describe me.

Number two, just as global warming hasn't cancelled winter, it hasn't canceled the necessity for travel, even while innovators are looking for ways to make it more energy efficient.

Virgin (air) Leading Effort To Reduce CO2 Emissions

Suggesting that anyone who supports global warming should back up that belief by immediately moving into a cave and staying there misses the entire point that it's not necessary. There are many solutions and potential solutions to dramatically reducing fossil fuel consumption. We simply need to get off our butts, develop them and use them.

Number three, other "millionaires" are spending a great deal of money to reduce their home energy footprint.

Al Gore goes green at home with a LEED renovation and solar roof

Orlando Bloom builds Green Home

and number four, your whining "Why-should-I-do-anything-when-not-everyone-is" rant is one of the most pathetic, juvenile excuses to do nothing I've heard on this board... although it is one I've heard before.

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[Praxius]

I don't hold faith in a line that only goes only 1/3 of the way down the chart... esspecially around the peak time spoken of, which there were no accurate records to begin with, therefore is all interpretation..... for people who like to believe in scientists, you sure like to believe in things they can't prove 1000 years ago.

... an interpretation that any scentist based on his opinion can nudge up or down for whatever reason to prove their case.

Might as well listen to a priest for all the good that'll do you, because that's a lot of faith on something that can not be proven.

That "Mediaval Warm Period" could have been a little more toasty then what we think.... don't forget, humans had it more rough back then, and therefore probably didn't bicker about the heat like we do now with our fancy air conditioning

and that's why I'll interpret it any way I damn well please, just as you do..... just like why many scientists are split on it as well today.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Sonart "Then" being around 7 thousand years ago, directly following the end of the last Ice Age. Prax simply refuses to accept that desertification is a quantifiable fact, is happening right now, is, like warming itself, accelerating, and can be directly attributed to man, both through deforestation and global warming, and that it's not explainable by any other reason. As long as there's any other excuses that he can cling to -- no matter how many times it's been rebutted -- he will.

Yawn, then your powers of deduction should have pointed you to all this pollution and heating to be coming to another ice age on a good portion of the planet. You seem to continue to forget to put the earth calculations in front of your equation, rather then at the end, where you feel we have control of the earth..... a common human fault.

Enjoy the winter fellas, it's going to be fun.

The funny thing is, you guys ignored all the reports and studies I presented..... yet you hypocritically try and point the finger at me, when considdering I based this thread in concentration of this winter in paticular and the study presented at the moment. How about sticking to the damn subject for once in your lives, as I already attempted to bring it back on track already with further related news reports of the week.

Get on the right topic or get the hell out. Our little global warming bickering isn't going to go anywhere you should realize by now.

[brien]

Your choice obviously being to do nothing.

False assumption on your part. I do everything I can to be a responsible citizen who has the best interest of the planet in mind. I don't need to be lectured by hypocrites pretending to be the greenest animal on the planet. You are making ASSumptions that do your arguments no good there Sonart.

Suggesting that anyone who supports global warming should back up that belief by immediately moving into a cave and staying there misses the entire point that it's not necessary

I never suggested anything of the sort. You are introducing more extreme false arguments in a failed attempt to make your case again Sonart. I merely showcase the hypocrisy of the elites who try and tell me how to live when they are living lifestyle far in excess than I ever will. They probably create more damage to planet in one day's jet ride than I do in 10 years Their actions speak far louder than your suck up justifications for them.

Number three, other "millionaires" are spending a great deal of money to reduce their home energy footprint

Al Bore's and John Edwards excuses for their excessive lifestyles that do more to harm the enviornment than I ever will in 100 years, are simply cop outs that have you, and other gullible greens, hypnotized into thinking they are the answer to the planet's problems. They are bigger contributors to global warming than I will ever be, so anything you accuse me of applies to them tenfold, no wait, one hundredfold..

You can spill all of the nonsense about carbon credits you want, but it doesn't make up for the damage they do to the enviornment in their excessive lifestyles. You fall for their "carbon credit" bullshit which is like saying one can gobble up all of the electricity they want so long as they support green production somewhere else. This is like saying you can eat all the food you want, become an obese slob, and justify it by contributing to UNICEF. This is feel good bullshit and I don't fall for it one bit.. You do, I don't, so be it.

The answer is to NOT live in 28 room mansions like Gore and Edwards do. And if they do, they should generate their own clean and renewable energy, but they don't do this. Whoever said that living in a cave is what is expected of them. Only people who take extreme defensive positions like you, when people like me, who have legitimate criticisms against your high priest of the enviornment, continues to harm the enviornment 100 times more than I do. You can't logically defend or justify the excessive energy appetite that Gore, Edwards,and Kennedy have, so you must try and redefine the argument by saying I expect them to live in a cave. That is a load of crap and you know it. I have a legitimate criticism, and you use extreme straw dogs in a failed attempt to refute it, and it simply doesn't apply. Nice try though.

One answer is to build wind generating farms in Nantucket Sound over and above Ted Kennedy's objections that it will spoil his view from the Kennedy Hyannis compound on Cape Cod. One answer for John Edwards is to live a less excessive lifetstyle by selling that mansion in NC and moving to a more reasonable home that fits a more green lifestyle for his small family. The answer for AL Bore is to practice what he preaches by using clean and renewable energy to power his lifestyle I don't see any clotheslines at his mansion. These people are hypocrites and when you support them, you become one also. Try thinking for yourself rather than being a parrot for the elites, you may find it is refreshing for a change, Sonart.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Praxius Yawn, then your powers of deduction should have pointed you to all this pollution and heating to be coming to another ice age on a good portion of the planet. You seem to continue to forget to put the earth calculations in front of your equation, rather then at the end, where you feel we have control of the earth..... a common human fault.

I don't put calculations anywhere, Praxius. The world's scientific community does.

No doubt if you simply inform them of the Medieval Warming Period, and the Little Ice Age, and all the other rubbish the naysayers keep bringing up again and again and again in their endless, 10 yr-old circular list for excuses, science will all slap it's collective forehead and go, "Oh wow, why didn't WE think about that!"

Quote by: brien False assumption on your part. I do everything I can to be a responsible citizen who has the best interest of the planet in mind.

Except concede the fact that anthropogenic global warming is a reality, about which everyone needs to pitch in.

Al Bore's and John Edwards excuses for their excessive lifestyles that do more to harm the enviornment than I ever will in 100 years are simply cop outs that have you and other gullible greens hypnotised into thinking they are the answer to the planet's problems.

Because they're doing a thousand times more than you to find solutions and promote new technologies. And talk about assumptions, you have no idea what their lifestyles are.

The answer is to NOT live in 28 room mansions like Gore and Edwards do. And if they do, they should generate their own clean and renewable energy, but they don't do this.

I just gave you a link that explains how Gore is doing just that and much more, had you bothered to read it.

Is this really your argument, brien? That ordinary folks shouldn't take steps to fight global warming until all the rich Democrats do???


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[brien]

And talk about assumptions, you have no idea what their lifestyles are.

Their lifestyles are very much publisized Sonart. All I need to know is how much Bore flys around in private jets and the approximate amount of jet fuel he uses to understand his hypocrisy. I have personally seen Kennedy's compound in Hyannis and John Edward's mansion in NC is well documented. AL Bore's mines did more to harm the enviorment than I could ever do in 10 lifetimes. Oh but wait, he sold them so he is no longer responsible for all of the damage he caused to the enviornment. BULLSHIT Sonart. PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT and you fall for every word from them.

I just gave you a link that explains how Gore is doing just that and much more, had you bothered to read it.

It's freelkin proaganda to support their excessive lifestyles and you lap it up. So what. Al Bore greens up his home. I had solar panels 20 years ago while he was destroying the enviornemnt with his mines. I sit upon a board in town that approved and made happen of a 2 megawatt solar panel operation for a warehouse. But I do nothing at all according to your assumptions.

How do carbon credits and green power at his mansions make up for all the damage Gore has caused in the past, and continues to cause with excessive jet fuel use? He made a movie where now several of the aspects of it have been called into question. Woooo big deal. Granted he rasied some awareness but his excessive claims have now damaged the credibility of the cause whether you like it or not. He has politicised the issue and alienated possible allies tothe cause., Furthermore, he now pursues foreigners so we will see how far he gets with the Russians, Chinese and Indians. I doubt very far. He will probably alienate them from the cause as well. I say he should shut down the jet and stay home.

You see, he is once again, just like the fat man who gorges on food all day long, but since he gives to UNICEF, it is A-OK. Nothing can be further from the truth. He needs to stop eating and be trim like the rest of us. Give me a f*cking brake with your asshole heros.

Is this really your argument, brien? That ordinary folks shouldn't take steps to fight global warming

Just the opposite Sonart. We "little folks" have been taking steps since the 1970's to conserve the enviornment by using solar panels, wind and water power to ease the burden on the enviornment long before Al Gore, and the Folloywood types made it fashionable to do so. We "little folks" left over from the 60's were the pioneers in enviornmentalism. We pulled off the first earth day before it was fashionable by gathering down in DC on the mall. We eschewed oil companies and their gas guzzlers by driving Volkswagens in the 60's and bought Toyotas in the early 70's when things made in Japan were ridiculed as being inferior.

But you probably don't remember these things because all you seem to be concerned with is how fashionable it is now to have you nose up AL Gores ass as he flaunts the enviornmental cause as an excuse to fly around the world, living the life of the rich and famous pretending to be the champion of the enviornment. The cause would be better served if he confined himself to DC and operated an institue to lobby the lawmakers on the Hill to be more enviornmentally responsible to to our own nation.

Nope Sonart. we don't need greedy leaders to show us the way of the world. We forged a way before there was "the way". So you keep on keepin on with AL Bore, and I will keep on with my way, and hopefully the twain shall never meet to co-opt the real heroes who will eventually be at one with the planet. The enviornmental war will be won through small victories claimed by the little people, not by the psuedo heroes who pretend to be the champions of the world. Keep them, we don't need em.

This gets so old...

[Praxius]

Quote by: Sonart . I don't put calculations anywhere, Praxius. The world's scientific community does. No doubt if you simply inform them of the Medieval Warming Period, and the Little Ice Age, and all the other rubbish the naysayers keep bringing up again and again and again in their endless, 10 yr-old circular list for excuses, science will all slap it's collective forehead and go, "Oh wow, why didn't WE think about that!"

Gee, scientists actually not restricting their findings and calculations to one focused study? That would be unheard of. Man if they decided to do that, that'd prevent them having further work for themelves to get paid to do down the road which they would have had years ago.....

All this BS about our health, weight and how to properly eat is a prime example of this.... one month we should start eating this way.... the next month we should be eating this way.

Then a few months later it's discovered that if we keep eating this way, we get cancer, so we eat another way.... then we have to look out for our carbs.... then we gotta start worrying about hydronated oils..... then we have to worry about fat.... then we're told there's good fat and bad fat.... then we gotta worry about sugar levels, but make sure we don't short ourselves.... then we're told to take a pile of vitamins because we don't get enough on a daily basic, then a new report comes along stating we shouldn't take vitamins because proper amounts are not labeled on the bottles and hasn't been proven to improve our health, and in fact has been proven to sometimes cause more harm then good......then we got this recent study saying we shouldn't measure ourselves to how over weight we are, but rather how fit we are (I'll supply that study someday) Quite honestly, there is only a select level of information I believe from scientists these days... I'm not saying they're always wrong.... But like the government, I just don't follow something blindly without thinking.

By the way, Little Ice Age you say? Now who's being silly?

[brien]

But like the government, I just don't follow something blindly without thinking

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Praxius:

People who follow leaders and government will probably never uderstand folks like us. They need to have heroes and idols. They suckle off the tits of wanton self dignity. They require someone to place all of their hopes and dreams at the altar of their desires. You see, enviornmentalism is only their clothes. They are caught up in popularity like people in Hollywood. ie Al Gore and his Oscar.

Gore's followers kiss his ass. It is Follywood. They don't have the "gravitas",(their word) or the intellectuality to tackle the task at hand, because they feed off the popularity of others who merely parrot the wind of superficiality from those who spin the webs of their banal and excessive ideas in this very intense debate. These poeple want your adoration. Don't be fooled by them.

Those of us who are enviormentalists live it every day. We don't need to champion it through people who waste more energy than you or me. They make popular excuses for their excess.

We know who we are, and we don't need anyone to define us, are you listening Sonart

[Le GoogelGuRu]

The coldest winter in years just has to be the one where the Bonavista peninsula has to go without electricity for a week.

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart As Richard Mosset, a meteorologist with the Canadian Meteorological Centre, said, "We may have forgotten what Canadian winters used to be like."

Younger Canadian Maritimers have probably never experienced a real winter. And maybe this particular fluctuation is showing them one.

Well well. The corner of Portage and Main out in Winnipeg ('the coldest intersection in Canada') will be sprouting palm trees before a lot of people get it into their heads that burning fossil fuels is bringing about cataclysmic changes.

By then it'll be too late. Probably is already.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: brien Their lifestyles are very much publisized Sonart. All I need to know is how much Bore flys around in private jets and the approximate amount of jet fuel he uses to understand his hypocrisy.

Then surely you'd know the extent to which Gore has gone in making his home energy efficient.

As to flying around, that's the only means of timely international travel we have at the moment. I dare say the value of Gore's traveling message outweighs his use of the only means available to spread it.

Again, attacking the messengers for not living as perfect examples, when the means to such perfection won't exist until people start listening to the messengers, is both juvenile and a pathetic cop out.

Quote by: brien AL Bore's mines did more to harm the enviorment than I could ever do in 10 lifetimes.

No brien, it didn't. The mine was leased by Gore's father, who died in 1998. The mine went to his son, Al, who closed mine 5 years later, in 2003, and Gore himself pushed legislation to regulate such mining for it's production of 'toxic substances'. And all despite the fact that Gore's mine also produced Germanium, which is used in fiber optics and advanced comminications, and for which Gore's mine was the primary source for the Western hemisphere. Not something to be casually discarded, yet that's apparently what Gore did.

Seems the only BULLSHIT is coming from you, brien.

Quote by: Praxius Gee, scientists actually not restricting their findings and calculations to one focused study? That would be unheard of.

In case you're unclear of the process, Praxius... scientists present their findings in the form of papers to be published, which are sent for peer review to other scientists who are experts in that particular field. In other words, all existing knowledge on a subject is taken into account.

Quote by: Praxius they decided to do that, that'd prevent them having further work for themelves to get paid to do down the road which they would have had years ago...

Say what?????

Quote by: brien We know who we are, and we don't need anyone to define us, are you listening Sonart

Not really, brien. You seem to think that ignoring facts is the same as not being a follower. All you've defined yourself as is an ignorant self-obsessed fool.

Tell you what, though... copy some of these debates out and save it in a scrap book or something. Then show it to your grandchildren in 20 years. If you're not too ashamed.

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