Trooper Caught On Tape Tasering Motorist

[shawmutt]

I was pretty sure you'd pull that out. We aren't talking about the jobs with the highest accident rate--that oversimplifies a very important point. How many of those top 10 jobs deal with criminals every day? We ask cops to constantly and consistently put themselves in harm's way--something we don't ask of those top 10. They keep us average joes safe so we can go home every night, watch youtube videos, and bitch on an internet forum about the crappy job they do.

I noticed soldiers aren't in that "most dangerous" list either--are they also "spoiled authoritarians?"

[ruksak]

Quote by: shawmutt I was pretty sure you'd pull that out. We aren't talking about the jobs with the highest accident rate--that oversimplifies a very important point. How many of those top 10 jobs deal with criminals every day? We ask cops to constantly and consistently put themselves in harm's way--something we don't ask of those top 10. They keep us average joes safe so we can go home every night, watch youtube videos, and bitch on an internet forum about the crappy job they do. I noticed soldiers aren't in that "most dangerous" list either--are they also "spoiled authoritarians?"

Tell me why the officer lied about the sequence of events? Mistake? Bad memory? Or purposeful deceit?

And you can ask around, Osborn FNready for one. I have made a strong show of support for police in situations like this before and the application of the taser, on this very board many times. This time I'm not standing up for the officer. No way. He lied. He pulled a very dangerous weapon on a man over a f*cking traffic ticket because he was angry.

Thats why he lied.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: shawmutt I noticed soldiers aren't in that "most dangerous" list either--are they also "spoiled authoritarians?"

Why yes. They are. Simply look at the actions at Abu Graib and such.

Although, such a point is off-topic for this thread.

Keith

[shawmutt]

He pulled a very dangerous weapon on a man over a f*cking traffic ticket because he was angry.

It was not over a traffic ticket. The man refused to sign the ticket, in Utah that means you go to jail. The officer followed procedure and subdued a man that was not complying and stuck his hand in his pocket. Are you assuming he was angry because he was shouting?

Why don't you tell us about the events leading up to this incident. How was the cop's day before this happened? Why did guy in the car give the cop a hard time? What did the cop see in the SUV when he pulled him over? There's too many of these video bits going around with too many assumptions to match.

I'm pretty happy about it because the punk got what he deserved for his attitude from the get go. Maybe if folks were coddled less in this country it wouldn't be going down the tubes like it is.

[ruksak]

I take it that your answer is that you don't know?

To the question as to why the officer lied about the sequence of events.

Quote by: shawmutt It was not over a traffic ticket. The man refused to sign the ticket, in Utah that means you go to jail.

Thats a technicality. It is not necessary to sign a ticket. The cop got pissed because this guy wasn't playing his game regarding this bullsh*t ticket. Instead of informing the man he was going to be arrested, he opted for the "tough guy" show. A surprise for Mr Questions was in store. Someones gonna find out who the big man is, the hard way.

"Hop out of the car sir".

*pulls taser

"PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK"

Wait? Aren't you supposed to get handcuffs out when arresting a non-combative suspect that hasn't made any attempt to flee or threaten you? Aren't you supposed to say "You're under arrest" before you threaten to electrocute a man that has no god damn idea why you're pointing a dangerous weapon at him?

The answers are, yes.

Quote by: shawmutt The officer followed procedure and subdued a man that was not complying and stuck his hand in his pocket.

He did not follow procedure He threatened an unarmed and compliant man. No, Massey didn't comply with his order to sign a piece of parchment. But that has nothing to do with what happened outside of that SUV.

What happened outside of that SUV is a cop got his rocks off hard by teaching a man a lesson. This lead to the skittish behavior by Massey that got him tased. Cops are not on our streets for that purpose. They are not out there handing out tickets so they may teach us a lesson through a show of force.

Are you assuming he was angry because he was shouting?

I assume nothing. To me it's crystal. The cop was pissed off at this mans questions. As citizens, we have a right to question police. There is no law against this. You can tell the motive. Its in the lie. The lie that you keep avoiding.

He told his boss that he only pulled his taser AFTER telling the man to put his hands behind his back and the man started to walk off. That is a lie. A telling lie at that.

The officer pulled his weapon because he was disrespected and he wanted to force this man to respect him, at taser point. He was angry.

Quote by: shawmutt How was the cop's day before this happened?

Again, police are supposed to exhibit a type-A personality. They are not supposed to react with anger, but judiciousness. They are not supposed to threaten people because they are mad. He had not yet received proper reason for the use of force.

Quote by: shawmutt Why did guy in the car give the cop a hard time?

Because the cop was ripping him off. Essentially stealing $100 from him for a bullsh*t ticket.

Do you think it was a coincidence that this cop was sitting right between a 60MPH sign and a 40MPH sign? I don't. I think thats a classic speed trap. Massey knew this and called him on it. It made the pig very angry.
I don't know about you, sir, but I don't let people jerk me off just because they wear a shiny badge. I ask questions.

Quote by: shawmutt Maybe if folks were coddled less in this country it wouldn't be going down the tubes like it is.

So what you're saying is "Maybe if people allowed themselves to get f*cked over by authority figures and just shut up and stop asking questions, the world would be a better place"?

Would you have preferred it if the cop just tased him as soon as he said "I'm not signing anything"? No need for "coddling" when a 50,000 volt electrocution can straighten this non-conformist out, right off the bat.

Not me. I ask questions. If the pig didn't want to hear questions, he shouldn't set speed traps.

Now MR Bigman is finally answering some questions. This time from an external investigation agency.

A bit from ABC news;
ABC News: Utah Cop's Itchy Taser Finger Probed

In less than six seconds after asking Massey to get out of the car, Gardner has told him to turn around and put his hands behind his back and pulled out his Taser, a device that fires tiny, tethered cartridges that transmit electrical currents to shock an intended target.

Why the taser? Massey is just talking. Not saying no to an order. He's not doing anything but talking.

Here is the lie! As described by ABC news.

A second officer arrives on the scene and Gardner explains the incident to him. "He was completely in charge," he said, describing Massey's behavior. "I said, 'Hop out, put your hands behind your back.' He didn't do it," Gardner told his colleague. "I said, 'Put your hands behind your back.'" When Massey refused to follow his order, Gardner continued, "I said no, I'm not playing that game, pull out the Taser, 'Turn around, right now, or I'll Taser you.'" The colleague responded, "Good for you."

Shawmutt, we both know this isn't what happened. Why did officer Gardner lie to his supervisor?

I know why. Do you?

He was angry.

The department has a nine-page Taser policy, Roden said, and this is an incident that will be taken "very seriously." Now that decision will be made by the state's public safety internal affairs officers.

Well well.....Mr 'I Don't have to answer questions' is going to be answering plenty of questions. And I doubt the embellished excuse he gave to his supervisor is gonna fly under the radar.

More;

In the event that a motorist refuses to sign, a trooper can simply write "refuses to sign" on the citation, which is then given to the driver, or they can chose to arrest the motorist, Roden said.

So when you said;

Quote by: Shawmutt The man refused to sign the ticket, in Utah that means you go to jail.

Technically, you are wrong. This was by the officers own individual volition. Given that you now know this, are you willing to state that officer Gardner most certainly should have at least informed Mr Massey of his intention to arrest, thusly affording Massey a chance to avoid an unnecessary arrest?
Salt Lake Tribune - UHP on defense in Taser incident

Troopers that carry Tasers must take a four-hour certification course outlining how and when to use the devices, according to UHP's nine-page policy. They are taught to use them in three circumstances: * When a person is a threat to themselves, an officer or another person. * In cases where the physical use of force would endanger the person or someone else. * When other means of lesser or equal force by the officer has been ineffective and a threat still exists.

What? It doesn't say *In cases when you've been disrespected by the asking of too many questions and you're really f*cking pissed off.

If there is no reason to use a taser. Than there is no reason to draw your taser.

[Chris]

Quote by: shawmutt It was not over a traffic ticket. The man refused to sign the ticket, in Utah that means you go to jail. The officer followed procedure and subdued a man that was not complying and stuck his hand in his pocket. Are you assuming he was angry because he was shouting?

Well maybe its the audio, and I couldnt hear it, but the cop should have nicely told him "if you refuse to sign, you have to be taken in so its your choice."

Also tell him that signing is not an admission of guilt, and that he could make his case in court.

I dont think I heard any of that.

[mark3748]

Maybe if the cop would have been more like this guy, none of this would have happened. Even after being assaulted and verbally abused he stayed calm and patient.

So what you're saying is "Maybe if people allowed themselves to get f*cked over by authority figures and just shut up and stop asking questions, the world would be a better place"? Would you have preferred it if the cop just tased him as soon as he said "I'm not signing anything"? No need for "coddling" when a 50,000 volt electrocution can straighten this non-conformist out, right off the bat. Not me. I ask questions. If the pig didn't want to hear questions, he shouldn't set speed traps.

It's the right and duty for every American to question authority. The side of the road isn't the proper place to argue a ticket, but he wasn't even doing that, he was simply trying to figure out why he was being stopped and ticketed. The cop wasn't trying to promote public safety, he was teaching a lesson, either submit or you will be punished.

You would think so, but then again you never know how you would act in a situation like that. I actually kind of do. I participated in a live fire training thing with our SWAT team. They had us playing bad guys and random civilians. The first thing I did when all of the sudden there's a guy pointing a Glock19 at me was to stop and put my hands up. Of course that was when I was playing the civilian. When I was a "bad guy" I tried to take a shot. The differentiation is pretty important and somewhat typical.

You participated in a live fire training where you were in no real danger, and you think that somehow prepared you to act in a real, life-threatening situation?

[shawmutt]

Thats a technicality. It is not necessary to sign a ticket.

You're wrong, in Utah it is necessary to sign a ticket. If you refuse to sign a ticket, you are refusing to agree to show up at court, and
the cop takes you there.

Police officer wanted me to sign a traffic ticket and I refused

Q: What could happen if a police officer wanted me to sign a traffic ticket and I refused? A: The traffic ticket contains an actual notice to you of a pending court date at which you must appear. By signing the ticket, you are providing an acknowledgment of receipt of the "notice to appear." Since the officer is charging you with a violation of law, he could take you into custody. By signing the traffic ticket, you avoid being taken into custody at that time, and are "released on your own recognizance" pending the court date. It is better to sign the traffic ticket and go about your business pending the court date. By signing the traffic ticket, you remain free and retain the right to show up at the hearing to contest the issuance of the citation or summons. A person is free to refuse to sign the traffic ticket; however, the police officer is free to place him/her under arrest and take him/her into custody.

Why the taser? Massey is just talking. Not saying no to an order. He's not doing anything but talking.

This question, along with most of the others (like the all the rest of the "your under arrest" and "miranda rights" stuff), were answered by three actual cops in my quotes post #33.

What happened outside of that SUV is a cop got his rocks off hard by teaching a man a lesson.

And a well deserved lesson--I know I got my rocks off hard.

Why is it that these debates about authority figures wind up being ad hominem (the authority figure is dumb) or straw man?

[Chaossaber314]

I'm trying to stay out of this thread but felt I'd respond to this little bit of idiocy.

Quote by: mark3748 You participated in a live fire training where you were in no real danger, and you think that somehow prepared you to act in a real, life-threatening situation?

Why don't we point a glock19 at your high and mighty ass and see how you react? These weren't blanks and the fact of the matter is that when a group of people come at you in full riot gear with real guns telling you to put your hands in the air you do what they f*cking tell you.



And this was the result of when they actually did hit me. Try and know what the hell you're talking about next time.

As I said in the point before, if you think a cop has drawn their gun on you, you don't turn and walk away. If that's your first instinct, there's something wrong with you. And it's irrelevant because in this instance the cop didn't have his gun drawn on this guy, but the guy thought he did as evidenced from his comments afterward. In my situation, they were real guns. So my label of "kind of" having some idea really does apply.

[Jack]

Final warning to drop the personal insults and debate the topic.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Shawmutt You're wrong, in Utah it is necessary to sign a ticket. If you refuse to sign a ticket, you are refusing to agree to show up at court, and the cop takes you there.

lol.........I saw that junk sight too, First thing that pops up.

What that lawyer doesn't mention is the officer may write "refuses to sign" on the ticket and send you on your way. You accuse me of crappy debate tactics and yet you aren't addressing my posts. Why do I bother typing all that pertinent info if you're gonna ignore it?

This is from UHP spokesman, Cameron Roden; Per this interview found at this link from a major Utah newspaper, not a half-ass legal advice forum;
Salt Lake Tribune - UHP on defense in Taser incident

When drivers sign traffic tickets, they are not necessarily admitting guilt but merely acknowledging they will show up at court or to pay the ticket, Roden said. In the event that a motorist refuses to sign, a trooper can simply write "refuses to sign" on the citation, which is then given to the driver, or they can chose to arrest the motorist, Roden said.

There. Are we crystal about that aspect? Now that we are you can proceed with answering the question that was attached to it in my previous post.

Given that you now know this, are you willing to state that officer Gardner most certainly should have at least informed Mr Massey of his intention to arrest, thusly affording Massey a chance to avoid an unnecessary arrest?

I've answered every question you posed. Try addressing one of mine straight up.

This question, along with most of the others (like the all the rest of the "your under arrest" and "miranda rights" stuff), were answered by three actual cops in my quotes post #33.

I hate to say it, but that stuff is a landslide of anecdotal bull. I also hate to say this again; My brother is a 7 year veteran cop. He laughed his ass off at that tape. His first response? "If that officer had to work a city beat in Fountain Square Indianapolis like I do, he'd consider that guy to be pleasant in relativity to what I deal with every night". And he's right. Rural cops get bored and complacent. Their duties dissolve often to that of a traffic monitor. I said it earlier in this post. I've watched my bro get cursed at like he's nothing but garbage, and my brother remains calm and courteous, redirecting and diffusing hostile motorists. Often they feel stupid after a minute or two and settle down. Even apologizing for their behavior on their own volition.

His assessment mimics mine. Officer Gardner blew the chance to make that a routine traffic stop. When you pull someone over and they get hostile, a cop has to act like a director in a movie. Directing and dictating the mood of the stop.

I also asked what he does when he has a motorist that refuses to sign. He said this only happened twice in his 7 years. Both times he explained to them clearly the ramifications and the potential for arrest. Both times he said, they explained they weren't aware of the potential for arrest and they complied with signing the ticket.

And again, he's never been on youtube.

Why is it that these debates about authority figures wind up being ad hominem (the authority figure is dumb) or straw man?

I explained to you, Shawmutt, that I have argued fervently on the other side of this debate concerning the Andrew Meyer case. I was called an avid supporter of "Authoritarianism" for doing this. I am an impartial person concerning matters like this. I made extraordinary effort to justify officers using force and the taser to subdue hostile suspects.

The problem as I see it is you think people should do as their told and not ask questions, which makes you quite bias going into this debate.

I have issue with your creditability in this thread as you have avoided addressing the tough questions. Specifically, why did the officer lie? I have asked your opinion on this three times in three posts now, consecutively. So far nary a hollow echo returned in kind.

As well, keep in mind that I have cast dispersion toward Mr Massey for his idiotic reaction to the idiotic drawing of the taser. He didn't deserve to have that taser pulled on him. He DID deserve to have that taser deployed, however. It was a sort of Mexican stand-off. Once that bad boy is out, there is only one rational reaction. Submission. Mr Massey could still have raised quite a stink and pursued an investigation just for officer Gardner's error of pulling it out like that.

I'd be happy to continue this debate with you. I would however wish to see it done in a tit-for tat manner. I find the sociological and psychological aspects of this matter quite intriguing.

[another day]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Apparently police need some better training on taser use.

No, you wish it were that easy. I am confident that police have not been trained to use their tasers simply on a whim when someone does something they don't like. They are trained to use them to incapitate violent subjects that are attacking them, others, or otherwise pose a threat to the safety of others.

The problem is not training, that is the short sighted response of someone who still gives the cops way too much benefit of the doubt. The problem is the corrupted, aggressive, authoritarian minds of the cops, and it stems from the type of human that the position attracts in the first place. People who get into politicics have a different desire for power, a much less primal, less aggressive desire but still a desire to control others. People who get into law enforcement, prison guards, and to some extent soldiers, have a very primal animal desire to control and dominate, and attack other people that they deem have showed them "disrespect". It's the same kind of human that is attracted to being a gangster. They want respect, they want a title, a position, a weapon, and they will use force when they see that respect being undermined. That is why the cop tasered the man, not because he was trained to do so. It was vindictive aggressiveness. It's what killed Robert dziekanski in vancouver, and it's why this guy got tasered. It's why, believe it or not, people get unlawfully brutalized all over the planet by law enforcement officers everyday.

It's not a problem with the cop weapons, the cop training, or the cop rules. It's a problem with the cop minds.

[Chaossaber314]

Generalize much?

We couldn't possibly have cops that legitimately want to help people, can we? Cops and other law enforcement officials certainly don't enter into the profession for the money.

They get paid at or under a teacher's salary and continually are badmouthed as racist, corrupt, authoritarian, or accused of having a "desire to control and dominate, and attack other people that they deem have showed them "disrespect" by people who probably could never do the job they do. With some of the attitudes displayed in this thread I'm surprised we don't have MORE brutality having to put up with these ignorant generalized classifications every single day.

You want to know why some cops act out on the occasion that someone disrespects them? It's because they are continually disrespected by people like you until they finally snap.

Does it excuse their behavior? No.
Is it understandable? I think so.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we wouldn't have a problem with some cop minds (that in no way encompasses ALL cop minds) if they weren't continually attacked when they aren't doing anything wrong until they finally do something wrong simply out of being pushed too far?

Shit, I wasn't even an intern for 3 days before I was called a "Racist pig" by some idiot that demanded I give him information that I didn't even have.

We got called to a motel where about 30 people were about to kill some thug who was sleeping with the 14 year old daughter of a rival family. When the thug heard we were coming he took off and left the girl who we took into juvenile custody. Anyway, the crowd was still pissed off and I stayed outside while a lot more cops were inside. Anyway, a rumor spread throughout the crowd that because I was in khakis and a polo and carrying around a leather legal portfolio, I was a juvenile officer. The girl's uncle starts yelling at me demanding I tell him who the guy his neice was with in the motel room was. I didn't know and the cop I was standing next to told me to ignore him. So he finally stops and yells that if it was a white girl I would have told him who the guy was. They finally leave saying that we're "f**king racist" and that "f**kin' pigs need to do their jobs".

Not even 3 days into an internship... and you're talking to me about dealing with disrespect? Once again, this specific cop in the OP was in the wrong, but how dare you make any gross generalizations about a profession you clearly don't understand.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 We couldn't possibly have cops that legitimately want to help people, can we?

We can. In fact, it's one of the most oft-cited reasons police give for entering the profession.

This officer, however, is not among those.

Cops and other law enforcement officials certainly don't enter into the profession for the money.

Many of them are paid quite well. NYS Troopers make $49K in the academy and $52K starting when they graduate, plus can work unlimited overtime writing tickets on the Thruway whenever they feel like it.
Generalize much?

You want to know why some cops act out on the occasion that someone disrespects them? It's because they are continually disrespected by people like you until they finally snap.

Then the profession is doing a poor job of hiring.

To be sure, police officers handle tough situations. But is that a surprise to anyone who is applying for the job? It shouldn't be. Your average citizen is not a professional at handling tough situations. A police officer is. When one of their PRIMARY job qualifications is to be able to maintain their cool at all times, people are going to be very critical when it doesn't happen.

Not even 3 days into an internship... and you're talking to me about dealing with disrespect? Once again, this specific cop in the OP was in the wrong, but how dare you make any gross generalizations about a profession you clearly don't understand.

Well, I do understand the profession... see above.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Tivodan We can. In fact, it's one of the most oft-cited reasons police give for entering the profession. This officer, however, is not among those.

As already acknowledged. So you would agree that AnotherDay's generalizations of all cops are wrong?

Many of them are paid quite well. NYS Troopers make $49K in the academy and $52K starting when they graduate, plus can work unlimited overtime writing tickets on the Thruway whenever they feel like it. Generalize much?

Yeah, and how does the cost of living in New York State compare to elsewhere?

Then the profession is doing a poor job of hiring. To be sure, police officers handle tough situations. But is that a surprise to anyone who is applying for the job? It shouldn't be. Your average citizen is not a professional at handling tough situations. A police officer is. When one of their PRIMARY job qualifications is to be able to maintain their cool at all times, people are going to be very critical when it doesn't happen.

Which is something I agree with. However, it's a severely double edged sword when all cops are in turn generalized for the behavior of a few. No person is impervious to continual unwarranted psychological attacks.

I'm alleging the self fulfilling prophecy. Treat cops as if they're corrupt, stupid, and sadistic and eventually you're going to drive some cops toward that.

Well, I do understand the profession... see above.

I didn't quote you. I quoted AnotherDay.

[xyzer]

I agree the officer was a bit quick to Tazer the man...but here he was alone on a busy highway, with traffic speeding by. Would you want to get in a wrestling match with someone in that situation?. The man refused to sign the ticket( and go on his way) What would you experts do in such a situation? Wrestle with the man? Argue with him? Let him go? Hey its all on the tape and the officer knew it was being folmed.

Its pretty obvious to me that the man resisted arrestt and kept trying to talk his way out of it . Wouldn't he have saved himself much misery by signing the ticket and pleading his case in court? In other words he acted like an immature jerk and IMNSHO deserved to be shut up and arrested.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: xyzer Its pretty obvious to me that the man resisted arrestt and kept trying to talk his way out of it .

How can one resist arrest if one hasn't been informed that he's under arrest?

[mark3748]

Quote by: xyzer Wouldn't he have saved himself much misery by signing the ticket and pleading his case in court? In other words he acted like an immature jerk and IMNSHO deserved to be shut up and arrested.

Yes, he would have saved himself the trouble, but he had every right to refuse to sign the ticket until he was told why he was being cited. AFAIK, most police cameras don't record until the lights go on (although some are constantly recording and save 2-minutes of data prior to the lights being turned on) and from what I've read, the cop had his lights on before he started to pull over:

Man To Sue Highway Patrol After Traffic Stop Tasing - 2News

Massey says, “I thought he was going to go after someone on the other side.”

Which means he was well before the speed limit sign when the cop decided to pull him over. If he stopped him before he did anything wrong, the entire stop was illegal. He had no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, and therefore no stop could be made. In fact, since he didn't tell Massey why he was being stopped, he obviously had no RAS.

Quote by: xyzer In other words he acted like an immature jerk and IMNSHO deserved to be shut up and arrested.

I don't see how questioning authority and acting well within his rights is being an "immature jerk." Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't like having my rights trampled, and I sure won't just step aside and watch it happen.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Though I did note that while this is an example of abuse, it's also an example of how most people are physically fine after being tased. He might not be happy, but even when a taser is abused, like in this case, the subject is a whole lot better off than had they had the crap beaten out of them like in the old days.

That's somewhat of a red herring, but whatever. People can and do become injured or even die by tasers, therefore a taser should only be used when no better alternative is available. Tasers are dangerous because the person wielding the taser almost always has no knowledge over the health conditions of the person they're about to tase; the guy we watched being electrocuted could have had a pacemaker for all the cop knew, not to mention the possibility of a myriad of other health conditions. Furthermore, you should