Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

[Praxius]

Jeremy Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible sentence of five years for desertion.
(Canadian Press)

Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

Canada's top court will not hear the appeals of two American army deserters whose requests for refugee status were denied. The Supreme Court of Canada has refused to hear the cases of Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey, who each deserted to Canada in 2004 after learning they were to be deployed to Iraq. The high court, as usual, gave no reasons for its refusal. The men both applied for refugee status in 2004. The Immigration and Refugee Board rejected their claims in 2005. Both the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal have also refused to review the cases. Hinzman is believed to be the first American soldier to have fled to Canada because of the Iraq war, but dozens more may be in the country. He enlisted in the U.S. army as a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division and deserted in 2004 to avoid going to Iraq. He fled to Canada with his wife and preschool-age son. Now living in Toronto and working as a bike courier, Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible five-year prison sentence if he returns to the U.S. In response to the ruling, the War Resisters Support Campaign said the federal government should act to allow deserters to take refuge in Canada. The group is planning to hold a demonstration in Toronto on Thursday night. "We call on Parliament to take a stand by enacting a provision that would allow U.S. war resisters and their families to stay in Canada," said actor and activist Shirley Douglas. "The Supreme Court has handed the issue back to Parliament. It is urgent that Parliament demonstrate leadership and act in accordance with Canadian tradition." A release issued by the group on Thursday said a June 2007 poll by Strategic Communications showed 64.6 per cent of respondents in Ontario believe war resisters should be allowed to stay in Canada. The poll had an error margin of four per cent, 19 times out of 20. During his three-day hearing before the immigration board, Hinzman said he sought refugee status because he opposed the war in Iraq on moral grounds and thought the U.S. invasion violated international human rights standards. An immigration panel in March 2005 denied Hinzman political asylum, saying he failed to convince them he would be persecuted if he returned to the U.S. The board also denied asylum to Hinzman's wife and son. The Immigration and Refugee Board members said the U.S. is a democratic country and would provide Hinzman with a fair trial.

So what do you think?

Most Canadians usually have no issues with US Deserters and them coming across to our borders. It was a huge situation back in the Vietnam era where we let in thousands of dodgers/deserters:

Canada and the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A large number of draft dodgers, young American men facing conscription for the Vietnam War, decided to flee to Canada rather than serve in the American armed forces. These young men became concentrated in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. They were at first assisted by the Student Union for Peace Action, a campus-based Canadian anti-war group with connections to Students for a Democratic Society in the United States. Canadian immigration policy at the time made it easy for immigrants from all countries to obtain legal status in Canada. By late 1967, dodgers were being assisted primarily by several locally based anti-draft groups (over twenty of them), such as the Toronto Anti-Draft Programme. As a counselor for the Programme, Mark Satin wrote the Manual for Draft-Age Immigrants to Canada, in 1968. It sold over 100,000 copies in eight editions. Following the draft-dodgers, deserters from the American forces also made their way to Canada. There was pressure from the United States and Canada to have them arrested, or at least stopped at the border. In May 1969 the Canadian government ceased its active discrimination against deserters, after facing extensive criticism. The influx of these young men, who in many cases were well educated and politically leftist, affected Canada's academic and cultural institutions, and Canadian society at large. These new arrivals tended to balance the "brain drain" that Canada had experienced. While some draft dodgers returned to the United States after they were pardoned by Jimmy Carter in 1977, roughly half of them stayed in Canada. The deserters have not been pardoned and may still face pro forma arrest and release, as the case of Allen Abney demonstrated in March 2006. Estimates of how many Americans settled in Canada to avoid service vary greatly. Canadian immigration statistics show that 20,000 to 30,000 draft-eligible American men came to Canada as immigrants during the Vietnam era; estimates of the total number of American citizens who moved to Canada due to their opposition to the war range from 50,000 to 125,000 This exodus was "the largest politically motivated migration from the United States since the United Empire Loyalists moved north to oppose the American Revolution." Major communities of war resisters formed in the Slocan Valley and on Baldwin Street in Toronto.

So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in?

I hear many hear say that if you don't like what's going on... to leave.... so these guys are trying to leave, only to be sent back.

I think the big loophole here that's a difference between now and Vietnam, is there isn't a Draft factor in place.

Personally, if they don't feel they should die for something they don't believe in, then they have a right to reject participation, and if heading to Canada is their answer, so be it. My opinion is you join up to the military to serve for your country and defend the people.... but this current situation is void of all of this.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Praxius So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in?

I'm not sure how the soldier and the military maintain their contract to serve but if you breach a contract your subject to punishment.

If Helio is bought by Sprint and the service changes do I get to choose to ditch free of cost? No, I'd still have to pay the termination fee.

[Praxius]

Quote by: HelioPrime I'm not sure how the soldier and the military maintain their contract to serve but if you breach a contract your subject to punishment. If Helio is bought by Sprint and the service changes do I get to choose to ditch free of cost? No, I'd still have to pay the termination fee.

No you wouldn't because it would be a completely different contract which you signed under Sprint, not Helio.... so one could fight it.... and if you can't and your stuck... then that would be one more reason why I don't have a cell phone ..... but that's besides the point.

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Praxius No you wouldn't because it would be a completely different contract which you signed under Sprint, not Helio.... so one could fight it.... and if you can't and your stuck... then that would be one more reason why I don't have a cell phone ..... but that's besides the point.

When I had AT&T and it became cingular I called and said I didn't want to the service anymore. I was told I'd still have to pay the contract termination fee enough though I was going to have to change plans because Cing had a different price system.

[Praxius]

See that's something you should fight... anytime a price in the contract changes, then you should have to sign a new contract agreeing to those changes.... if not, then the contract should be null and void.

If you rent an apartment and then a year later they jack your rent up without signing a new contract or you agreeing to the hike.... then there is no liability on your part, but you then have to vacate..... from my understanding.

But besides the legal aspect of it all.... how about the moral human aspect?

Thousands of dodgers/deserters flee to Canada and sometimes Mexico to avoid serving in a war they do not believe in, or feel strongly that it is wrong..... Most signed up to defend the nation in which they live in.... to defend and protect their families and loved ones.... but also to get education and help with college.

But when the majority of the country you wish to protect is against a war you are about to serve in, and you yourself, as well as many other soldiers don't believe in the war.... shouldn't there be a method of opting out, or expressing your right of refusal?

Sure when you sign into the military you are to take orders and go where you are told to go and do what you are told..... But if you can't even have faith or trust in your commanders in making the right decisions, then what is left to do besides suck it all up and wait to be blown up by a suicide bomber?

The majority of Canadians, at least from polls I have read and my own communities in which I live in, only believe in going to war or to fight somewhere, if there are just principles behind them.

Many opposed going to Afghanistan, and many still do, but also there has been the principle of helping out the people of Afghanistan after the US invasion... progress has been made and positive responses have come our way by the people, so there is a purpose at this point. If Afghanistan was exactly like Iraq, we wouldn't be there. Actually by 2009 we will be technically pulling out of operation, unless we voted for remaining in by a majority, which at this point doesn't seem likely.

But as I see it... these US troops are being forced to fight in an unjust war with a high chance of dieing or being wounded for something nobody believes in and nobody back home will think of them as heroes for being over there, much like what happened in Vietnam..... If they don't go over to die in this foolish war, then they face going to military prison for many years.

If the roles were reversed, I would hope the US would do the same thing for Canadian dodgers/deserters.

[brien]

When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die?

I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work.

Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground.

Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius Jeremy Hinzman faces a court martial and a possible sentence of five years for desertion. (Canadian Press) Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters So what do you think? Most Canadians usually have no issues with US Deserters and them coming across to our borders. It was a huge situation back in the Vietnam era where we let in thousands of dodgers/deserters: Canada and the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So do you feel these people should have the right to apply for staying in Canada, or should they be sent back to the US to face court martial in something they have no faith or belief in? I hear many hear say that if you don't like what's going on... to leave.... so these guys are trying to leave, only to be sent back. I think the big loophole here that's a difference between now and Vietnam, is there isn't a Draft factor in place. Personally, if they don't feel they should die for something they don't believe in, then they have a right to reject participation, and if heading to Canada is their answer, so be it. My opinion is you join up to the military to serve for your country and defend the people.... but this current situation is void of all of this.

What I think is that they're in Canada illegally and should be deported. If they want to enter Canada then they need to go through the process set forth in Canadian immigration law.

Now, with regard to this particular individual, he knew (or should have known) that when he joined the Army he could be sent into combat. If he didn't want to go to war, he should never have joined (of course, I'm writing this as someone who was in the first Gulf War).

[Lord Leinad]

Canada should deport all these deserters back to the United States. These men signed a deal with the military, agreeing to serve their country in the way their country saw fit. Just because you disagree with what your country is doing now, does not give you the right to breach the contract.

[Praxius]

Quote by: brien When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die? I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work. Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground. Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.

Ah but see, how can one have any devotion in taking another life for your country, if you don't believe there is justification for it? You need princples to fight and kill believe it or not, and many of these people joined with the thought of sacraficing themselves for their country and for a good cause.... but there is no good cause in this, and most of the country hates the war, so where's the sacrafice for a good cause?

Granted, you will have your guys who wanted a quick way of getting education and money etc.... but logically one would think there were easier ways then to risk your life for these things... and if they knew they were gonna jump ship as soon as a war broke out, then they would also know the consiquences.

I would say these guys are far from cowards, they are risking their own lives and the lives they knew back in the US, to refuse to fight in something they don't believe in.... it's not about contracts and responsibilities to them, it's about being human and risking military prison and freedom, to express their freedom of choice and knowing what is right and what is wrong, and if they feel what they would be doing would be wrong, then they have the right to refuse in my opinion.

I know that's not how it is in some places, but I feel if I'm going to join in the military to fight in a war, it has to be just. There has to be principles besides oil and profit, or forcing a country to change to democracy and other political games.

I feel I am defending the lives of those I know and grew up around. I have to feel that I would not be invading another country to pillage it.... or to kill someone who's defending their country because of my invasion.... they have something to belive in and fight for.....

WWI people had things they fought and joined up for that they believed in. Canada was defined in the world because of our involvement in WWI and having one of the largest militaries of the time. WWII, people had things they believed in and fought for.... there was evidence, there was action, and people knew something had to be done.

Then all of a sudden came the fake wars and the fake principles..... speculations to start wars.... lies to get profit. Soldier's lives for things that were no risk to the people they were intrusted to protect.

In my view, they made the right choice and turning their backs on their own country is not an easy one for anybody.... that has been their entire lives.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Chancellor What I think is that they're in Canada illegally and should be deported. If they want to enter Canada then they need to go through the process set forth in Canadian immigration law. Now, with regard to this particular individual, he knew (or should have known) that when he joined the Army he could be sent into combat. If he didn't want to go to war, he should never have joined (of course, I'm writing this as someone who was in the first Gulf War).

Ah, but as I see it, the Gulf War had something to fight for... Saddam took action and invaded another country.... they needed help, you guys went and took care of business... and it was quite effective I must say, good job.

But did you believe in what you were doing? Did you believe that if you were killed, that it was for a good cause? That someone less fortunate would have benifited from your actions? Those are the core principles that I uphold that would justify myself risking my own life, or willing to take someone diserving's life.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Praxius Ah but see, how can one have any devotion in taking another life for your country, if you don't believe there is justification for it? You need princples to fight and kill believe it or not, and many of these people joined with the thought of sacraficing themselves for their country and for a good cause....

How about to fight for the lives of their friends who have been placed in danger by the actions of the Bush admin?

Regardless of your stance on the war, the war is going on, and fellow military people are supposed to be their friends, their brothers. If my buddy gets in a drunken bar fight and is getting the crap kicked out of him, I don't leave him to get further hurt even if I know he started the fight.

Though in this case you'd be helping the person who went to his friend's aid and not the one who started the fight.

I have no respect for these deserters though I can see the argument that if they were willing to run away before they even saw the fight, I wouldn't want them watching my back.

[pahl]

Do you really want people that feels this strongly against the war in the military? How do you "support the troops", if the troops are unwilling, what would that entail?

I also think that 5 years is a little severe. There should be consequences for breaking the contract, but in matters like this, would not a year or so community service and the fact that its harder to get a job with a criminal record be enough?

When someone has volunteered to help and then does not want to help anymore when he sees what it entails, in matters with this serious consequences for the person, should he be so severly punished for.... saying he would help?
What has he been given or what has been lost so far because of it and what should he have to pay for that?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 How about to fight for the lives of their friends who have been placed in danger by the actions of the Bush admin? Regardless of your stance on the war, the war is going on, and fellow military people are supposed to be their friends, their brothers. If my buddy gets in a drunken bar fight and is getting the crap kicked out of him, I don't leave him to get further hurt even if I know he started the fight. Though in this case you'd be helping the person who went to his friend's aid and not the one who started the fight. I have no respect for these deserters though I can see the argument that if they were willing to run away before they even saw the fight, I wouldn't want them watching my back.

Understandable.... but others may see it as not understanding why these guys go so blindly at times...

I guess what needs to be understood between both of us, which I guess it already is, is that people join the military for different reasons. And sometimes those reasons are contrasting to their beliefs when thrown in something that goes against why they joined in the first place.

Perhaps that's their mistake.... perhaps it's the government's who puts them in these positions.... then again, perhaps it's the people of the country who don't keep the government in check in order to protect these troops.

[bishop]

given our government's behavior, anyone who enlists should be intelligent enough to realize that corrupt politicians constantly wage unnecessary wars - using them as fodder. i am definitely jaded, but imo, the notion of enlisting for patriotic reasons is as laughable as it is completely naive. since ww2, the only other war i view as justified was our half-hearted campaign in afghanistan.. everything else, however, from panama, to iraq, to somalia, to the balkans, vietnam, etc. - all of that should show any potential recruit that they can and will be sent off to fight for the establishment's global empire.

that said, i'm not entirely sure how i feel about this particular issue... on one hand, i don't feel a lot of sympathy for the guy because he volunteered to sell his body & soul to the establishment, and thus should be held accountable. on the other hand, i don't particularly mind seeing this affront to the establishment - as i view the military as the enabler of the establishment.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius Ah, but as I see it, the Gulf War had something to fight for... Saddam took action and invaded another country.... they needed help, you guys went and took care of business... and it was quite effective I must say, good job.

It was still an unconstitutional action on the part of the United States. We have no right to interfere in the internal affairs of other nations.

But did you believe in what you were doing? Did you believe that if you were killed, that it was for a good cause? That someone less fortunate would have benifited from your actions? Those are the core principles that I uphold that would justify myself risking my own life, or willing to take someone diserving's life.

I signed a contract and I knew when I joined the Navy back in 1981 that there was the possibility of going to war. The person who joins the military doesn't get to pick and choose which wars he is going to fight.

And what exactly does "diserving's" mean?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: pahl Do you really want people that feels this strongly against the war in the military? How do you "support the troops", if the troops are unwilling, what would that entail? I also think that 5 years is a little severe. There should be consequences for breaking the contract, but in matters like this, would not a year or so community service and the fact that its harder to get a job with a criminal record be enough? When someone has volunteered to help and then does not want to help anymore when he sees what it entails, in matters with this serious consequences for the person, should he be so severly punished for.... saying he would help? What has he been given or what has been lost so far because of it and what should he have to pay for that?

Desertion in times of war could bring the death penalty, though typically it brings a penalty of five years or less imprisonment. It isn't about merely breaking a contract, it's about deserting your country in a time of armed conflict.

[pahl]

Quote by: Chancellor Desertion in times of war could bring the death penalty, though typically it brings a penalty of five years or less imprisonment. It isn't about merely breaking a contract, it's about deserting your country in a time of armed conflict.

Yes, they deserted the county in a time of need, but the country does not demand that they serve.

They diden't desert in the middle of action. They where not responible for putting anyone in imminent danger because they deserted, no more than anyone else that could have enlisted and did not enlist.

The only difference between these guys and people that just did not enlist at all is that they walked out on a contract, nothing more. There is no draft factor to it.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: pahl Yes, they deserted the county in a time of need, but the country does not demand that they serve.

No, they volunteered and entered into a binding contract with the government.

They diden't desert in the middle of action. They where not responible for putting anyone in imminent danger because they deserted, no more than anyone else that could have enlisted and did not enlist.

No, they deserted during a time of war (even if the war is unconstitutional). They didn't have to actually be in a combat action.

The only difference between these guys and people that just did not enlist at all is that they walked out on a contract, nothing more. There is no draft factor to it.

The draft (conscription) has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Try reading what people write instead of reading into what people write.

[another day]

Quote by: brien When these fellas signed up for the service, do you think they thought it was supposed to be all partying on the beaches of Hawaii? Or could it be they were advised that they could be sent to war and as a result die? I think these guys knew exactly what they were signing up for when they volunteered to join the service. They probably changed their minds and now seek any way out they can make work. Therefore, I praise Canada for not giving them asylum since these guys are looking for a nation to merely underwrite their change of heart. They remind me of spoiled little children who make a choice for candy, attempt to eat it, and then cry that they want another choice because they didn't like their first choice which they spit on to the ground. Sorry life doesn't work like this. All adults must live with the consequences of their choice. Off to the stockade with them.

Sure it was dumb to sign up for the military without being a cold blooded killer who just wants to shoot people for fun, but that said, these guys probably signed up to DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY, not INVADE INNOCENT COUNTRIES.

Canada should be protecting these guys. Unfortunatly harper and his government are basically sucking Bushs balls these days.

[Praxius]

Quote by: another day Sure it was dumb to sign up for the military without being a cold blooded killer who just wants to shoot people for fun, but that said, these guys probably signed up to DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY, not INVADE INNOCENT COUNTRIES. Canada should be protecting these guys. Unfortunatly harper and his government are basically sucking Bushs balls these days.

I think it's more of a balancing act then anything. In the past with Vietnam deserters, there was the draft in place, which the majority of Canada opposed and still do... so they were permitted to cross.... but in this case, they did technically volunteered to fight in the services and are not facing a choice which was solely decided by the government.

The balancing act in this, is that by our laws and standards, and there not being a draft issue at this time, it's a bit more difficult to come to a final conclusion.

If Harper does permit these guys to enter the country under these conditions, where normal cases require threat to one's life by the country they are fleeing, torture from the country they are fleeing, or having their democratic rights being infringed apon, etc.... then this will allow thousands more people who are not at any risk of death or torture from their countries to plea a defense in regards to how these guys got in. Then there's an even bigger headache.

The defense the courts used was that they would be returning to a democratic country where they would not be facing torture at the government's hands and receive a fair trial, therefore Canada does not have a responsibility for their protection.

But personally, I feel there should be exceptions for cases like this.... however that would require the Canadian Government to rule the War in Iraq as officially illegal in some fasion.... which in turn would basically destroy what little relations there are between Canada and the US....

.... not like I see that as a huge loss or anything anyways.... honestly the loss would be more on the US side then us.... as then the US would have no major sources for Uranium, Fresh Water, Oil, Lumber, etc... then that would lead to most likely a war or threat of war between Can/US.....

Now wouldn't that be fun? All because a few people didn't want to die