Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

[Praxius]

Quote by: pahl Right, they need people to join the army. Seems to me someone able without a prior commitment to the military is just as reponsible for not filling that position.

What about soldiers who do go over, get shot and killed? Now those silly people are dead and have to be replaced too.... that affects the Unit.... too bad we can't court martial the dead for not being better soldiers.

[pahl]

What about soldiers who do go over, get shot and killed? Now those silly people are dead and have to be replaced too.... that affects the Unit.... too bad we can't court martial the dead for not being better soldiers.

Sorry, i dont get just what it is in my post that you disagree with.

[Praxius]

Nothing, I was adding to it

[xyzer]

Prax this shows us something?

Hypothetically, if I was currently in the forces now, if I was required to serve in Afghanistan, I would..... if I was to serve in Iraq I wouldn't. Both have different aspects which make them each different from another.

A serving soldier, sailor, marine or airman is not allowed to pick and choose where he/she will serve or what he/she will do? That is asinine. Unit cohesion and assigned objectives left to the vagaries of personal desire. Desertion is the epitome of refusual to comply with ones agreed contract! The military cannot function as a multiple choice bunch of rabble, each doing what he/she thinks is best? Neither can any commercial of governmental institution! What would your boss do if you walked off the job or refused to do what you are PAID TO DO?

So your hypothetical is nonsensical and indicative of your ignorance of the functiong of the military.

This reference by you has no bearing on my post!

The repeated intrusions by US marines, since 4 March 2002, into the demilitarized zone between Iraq and Kuwait, reported to the Security Council by United Nations peacekeepers, constitute a serious breach of the Security Council resolution on the basis of which the zone was set up after the Gulf War ceasefire in 1991.

No shots were fired and it was in a de militarized zone. My post referred to air patrols legally involved which were shot at by Iraqis in direct violation of treaty provisions! Get better informed, it will help you pathetic responses..

[thx1138]

Get better informed, it will help you pathetic responses..

wow, I really can't get over fact that you think your "informed".

[thx1138]

You don't have it do you. Except for that liberal rag you linked to that was LYING. I think it would be in a major newspaper, don't you? I checked with the; Calgary Herald Edmonton Journal Montreal Gazette Ottawa Citizen Vancouver Sun No mention of this supposed stream of American soldiers defecting. You called me ignorant for protesting that claim, and you never backed it up.

You can't expect to get a non-bais story from any major paper from the right or left. All media sources especially T.V. and Print have bais, so do you really think a story is true just because it's coming from Reuters or News Corp. ?

[another day]

I went to an anti war rally yesterday in vancouver and met a man from alabama named Brad McCall who is a war resister and came to canada.

His story was that he was raised a southern bapist, he was republican, conservative. He joined the military at a fairly young age with the idea that he would be able to get an education, and do some good in the world - the result of the mind wash system in the USA that tells people soldier is the most honorouble position and that the US army can do no wrong and are always the champions of freedom.

He trained with some certain infantry to become a soldier in Georgia. It was there he met many of the soldiers who had already been in Iraq. He heard their stories of seeing dead babies in the streets, innocent men being shot simply for being out after dark, and soldiers keeping human fingers and other body parts in their lockers as trophys. He heard them laughing about it all, and saying how they couldn't wait to get back to do it again. Their minds were warped and rotten from the war, from the war machine that produced them, the usa. It was then that he realized it was all wrong, not just the war, but the whole mindset he had been implanted with since birth. He rebelled against everything he had been taught, and fled to Canada.

When you hear an individuals story you get a much better perspective or the real issues surrounding this war. Blind sense of duty is not applicable here. It's a trick. It's how they turn ordinary people into sick robotic pawns to fulfill their imperialist plots. So yes I absolutly believe it is a good thing to have soldiers deserting the army in this case. Soldiers that desert the army are the ultimate protester. When someone involved in wrong doing comes out to protest against it, that is the strongest indicator of it's inherent evil.

If you want to blindly label these people as "cowards" then you are only fooling yourselves. The soldiers are the last front between the powers that orchestrate wars, and the innocent people that die on the ends of their guns. If more of them desert, object, and protest the war then wars will inevitably cease to exist as the government is left without adequate pawn warriors to carry out their plans. The battle between peace and destruction is ultimatly one of minds, of healing and destroying the sickened, aggressive minds of corrupted people.

You know the great quote "One day there will be a war to which nobody comes."

You can compare the Iraq war to WW2 all you want, but the two wars could not be farther off. Except maybe unless you consider America as the germany of this era. The germans and the japanese were an aggressive imperalist force, invading and occupying sovereign countries. America was an isolated and non-aggressive country that was attacked and defended itself. America in present day is the invader and occupier of countries. People in Iraq are simply defending their country from aggressive, imperalist occupiers.

So do you think it would not have been a good thing for more Nazi and japanese soldiers to realize what they were doing was wrong and not do it? Or do you think it's a good thing that so many blindly "fulfilled their duty"?

[Praxius]

Good post and good points.... unless you hear it from their own words and mouths then how can one judge their actions and motives?

[xyzer]

Another day, did it ever occur to you that your example soldier might be a chicken hearted flake?Listening to barracks BS and believing it so fully as to wet his pants and run?

Having been there done(at an early age...17) that, I heard plenty of BS in and around the barracks. It's a pastime in the military. I stayed as most normal humans do, and faced what wartime delivered. Isn't that what life presents us? Some good, some bad? Do we cut and run just when we hear there might be something bad ahead, or do we consider the sources?

Add to that reality your attempt to "generalize off one specific"(An illogical practice). Defintely unscientific?

[another day]

Quote by: xyzer Another day, did it ever occur to you that your example soldier might be a chicken hearted flake?Listening to barracks BS and believing it so fully as to wet his pants and run? Having been there done(at an early age...17) that, I heard plenty of BS in and around the barracks. It's a pastime in the military. I stayed as most normal humans do, and faced what wartime delivered. Isn't that what life presents us? Some good, some bad? Do we cut and run just when we hear there might be something bad ahead, or do we consider the sources? Add to that reality your attempt to "generalize off one specific"(An illogical practice). Defintely unscientific?

Hah, normals humans. That eat charred flesh off bodies in the street.

It's you, and those like you, that are weak. Those that are so afraid to "cut and run", ie: change their minds, change their position, that are the true cowards. True strength is knowing when you were wrong and admitting your mistakes. True weakness is blindly following duty because your too scared of how you might look if you don't. Changing your mind shows you are not infallible, which no man is. Those who do not have the courage to change their minds when they are wrong are cowards, guided only by what those close to them, and those in charge of them, might think of them.

Good for you, you stayed, followed other people, and went to war. Good for you. This guy risked his friends, his family, his entire life, he risked jail time, he came to canada not knowing if he would be homeless and hungry or not. He did this because he knew that the war in Iraq is inherently evil, that it is an invasion and occupation of other people's homelands, and the subsequent murder and destruction that follows. HE IS THE BRAVE ONE, not the chicken shit mindless troops that don't have the balls to reject things they can see are wrong.

Life presents you with good and bad, and it's up to you, if you have any valour, to make the distinction and choose the path that is honorouble and good.

Your brand of militeristic rhetoric about being brave and going to war is the exact brand of propaganda and mind washing that militaries wield to make true humans into mindless killing pawns. True braveness is standing up for what you believe in, not for what others want you to do.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: another day Hah, normals humans. That eat charred flesh off bodies in the street. It's you, and those like you, that are weak. Those that are so afraid to "cut and run", ie: change their minds, change their position, that are the true cowards. True strength is knowing when you were wrong and admitting your mistakes. True weakness is blindly following duty because your too scared of how you might look if you don't. Changing your mind shows you are not infallible, which no man is. Those who do not have the courage to change their minds when they are wrong are cowards, guided only by what those close to them, and those in charge of them, might think of them. Good for you, you stayed, followed other people, and went to war. Good for you. This guy risked his friends, his family, his entire life, he risked jail time, he came to canada not knowing if he would be homeless and hungry or not. He did this because he knew that the war in Iraq is inherently evil, that it is an invasion and occupation of other people's homelands, and the subsequent murder and destruction that follows. HE IS THE BRAVE ONE, not the chicken shit mindless troops that don't have the balls to reject things they can see are wrong. Life presents you with good and bad, and it's up to you, if you have any valour, to make the distinction and choose the path that is honorouble and good. Your brand of militeristic rhetoric about being brave and going to war is the exact brand of propaganda and mind washing that militaries wield to make true humans into mindless killing pawns. True braveness is standing up for what you believe in, not for what others want you to do.

True braveness would have been better exemplified by these guys remaining in the U.S. and fighting their deserter status through OUR courts, not the Canadian courts. On the other hand, if they really believe that the U.S. has become morally bankrupt and they are leaving not just the military but the society as well, I don't blame them a bit for going.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Zeebadee True braveness would have been better exemplified by these guys remaining in the U.S. and fighting their deserter status through OUR courts, not the Canadian courts. On the other hand, if they really believe that the U.S. has become morally bankrupt and they are leaving not just the military but the society as well, I don't blame them a bit for going.

Or, instead of deserting, challenge the legality of the order to go to Iraq. Since Congress did not declare war, invading Iraq is unconstitutional (and there is no authority in the Constitution for Congress to cede any of its powers to the President as the War Powers Resolution appears to have done).

[another day]

Quote by: Chancellor Or, instead of deserting, challenge the legality of the order to go to Iraq. Since Congress did not declare war, invading Iraq is unconstitutional (and there is no authority in the Constitution for Congress to cede any of its powers to the President as the War Powers Resolution appears to have done).

He applied for status as conscientous objector, it was overturned...

If you think deserting soldiers have any chance whatsoever in the US justice system, here's a hint; it's run by the government.

[Praxius]

Alright y'all, I'll settle this... True bravery and courage is like beauty..... it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Suicide bombers are heroric to many... US Marines doing their job in Iraq could be considdered as well.... and so can making a stand and refusing to do something that goes against their principles.

The same people who didn't go fight in a war, may still be someone who would run into a burning building to save someone. And someone could go over and fight and defend the unity of the nation in which they grew up in can also be considdered heroric.

Which is why this is about as solvable as abortion.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: another day He applied for status as conscientous objector, it was overturned... If you think deserting soldiers have any chance whatsoever in the US justice system, here's a hint; it's run by the government.

Objector status is not something one can just all of a sudden decide to apply for upon receiving orders to a combat zone. There are specific criteria in place (here's a website that discusses the criteria: Fact Sheet: Conscientious Objection) and you don't get to object to a particular combat action in order to be a conscientious objector. Thus, one could not support the war in Afghanistan but object to the war in Iraq and be a conscientious objector.