Top court refuses to hear cases of U.S. deserters

[ruksak]

Quote by: thx1138 Your're right about these guys signing up for a paycheck or the college funding. They should have known better then to sign-up in the first place. They made a stupid mistake, but unlike a job contract you're not jailed for quiting the job unless you received payment and don't return the money. They should be made to return any payments made to them after they decided to leave, but they should not be jailed that's is just silly.

Do you have any idea what that would do to our national security if it was acceptable for our troops to just f*cking quit?

Do you realize what the ramifications of such a thing would be?

MY GOD! It would be the end of America.

That is why they WILL BE punished. Severely. To set precedent. To remove this easy-out option from other soldiers during wartime.

This cannot stand. Nor will it.

[thx1138]

Quote by: ruksak Do you have any idea what that would do to our national security if it was acceptable for our troops to just f*cking quit? Do you realize what the ramifications of such a thing would be? MY GOD! It would be the end of America. That is why they WILL BE punished. Severely. To set precedent. To remove this easy-out option from other soldiers during wartime. This cannot stand. Nor will it.

Well, the eleventh hour is already ticking with the recuritment numbers, being too severe is not going to really help bring those numbers back up.

As I said before they made a stupid mistake.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Chancellor Never mind that these people violated the oath that they took and the contract they signed - and deserted their country in the process.

Leaders lead by example... if they can't follow their own rules, why should these people? They're the ones who's lives are at risk. And I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna throw my life away so easily.... if I see some justification for my sacrafice, then so be it.... but I'm not gonna sacrafice my life and my family to fill the pockets of some select.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak I see no mention of past foreign combatants against America during wartime that have prosecuted their own soldiers for war crimes in your post. None. No mention.

That's because my post was in relation to the US Invasion, my examples are in previous posts, which you have not bothered to read.

You cannot expect me to respond in full to every single point you make in such long double posts as you have.

Once again you just proved your ignorance.... as they were not double posts, but a continuation of information from the previous post before it.... but you didn't read any of it to know did you? Noooo......

Therefore you have thus proved you are not reading any of the facts and information provided to you to continue this debate, there for your opinions to me are irrelevent and you are wasting my time.

I don't have time to spend an hour responding to just you. If there is a specific point I missed in retort, please point it out.

All the information is there for you to read, I am not about to baby sit you and carry you by the hand through the information like some child, no offense.... but it's not hard information to wrap your head around.

Gee you don't have an hour to respond decently? I can read all of that information within 2 mins.... wtf takes you so long?

Nothing, because you are lazy in your debating skills. This is not a personal attack, as you have clearly proven this by your own responses admitting you did not even look at the evidence.

You know the funny thing here people?

• I state my opinion on something.
• Someone doesn't believe me and asks for evidence.
• I supply the evidence.
• I am told it doesn't cover enough and that it's not in detail.
• I then supply detailed evidence.
• I am then told it's too long and their too lazy to read it

How pitiful. I am begining to see what others were saying about the level of debate in these forums.

Iraq was in violation of UN charter by disallowing inspections. Therefor he was deemed as a threat. The basis for the legality of the war is split along party lines and mired in semantics.

Wrong in your details yet again.... provide some sources for once for your wild claims. Inspectors were in his country at one time.... they reported not finding anything of concern, much as they have just did with Iran.... the US didn't believe their evidnece and invaded anyways.

Get your facts straight.

This is a bias far-left liberal rag. I see no credible evidence that "hundreds of American soldiers are defecting". This is a LIE!

Prove it then..... oh that's right you can't..... because you have no sources for your emotional charges.

The information is all out there for you to read... how about you learn something rather then your typical denials.

I see no evidence from any other source that this is true.

Oh give it up, seriously.... I see no evidence proving this not being true.... you have these guys as two leading heads in the media over this matter.... I think our government intelligence would know a few things about who's crossing our borders and who's applying for refugee/citizenship/asylm status more then you do.

Here's some more background to this story; From an interview with "The Village Voice";April 6th, 2004 Soldiers for moral consciousness; Or poster boys for ignorance? Ohhhh......score one for the defector. He got a sweet brand new mustang out of this deal. Better head to Canada buddy if you wanna play with your new toy.

Wow, someone buys something with the money they ern.... I never thought that would happen in this world

Perhaps the military shouldn't have attempted to recruit teenagers in the first place who are underager, and who have not had enough life experience to make an informed decision. If I could make decent informed decisions at that age, I wouldn't be stuck in these loans I am in for college, which was a complete waste of time..... Oh but everybody tells you it's a good idea... everybody pressures you into thinking this is what you should be doing.... his father even helped him make the decisions...... yeah.... sounds like he made an informed decision on where his life was going.

The evidence is mounting against him. It's becoming obvious that he signed up for the $$$$money$$$$, not the duty.

Most Canadian soldiers sign up because of the money as well... many of those fighting over there now signed up because of money.... but everybody has a limit to what money can buy..... and just because someone joins the military based on money and educational promises, doesn't take away from that person, as even the militaries promote this for joining and they know this is an easy way of sucking you in, esspecially at a young age.

Technically he could fight this whole thing because he was underage, and regardless if his father co-signed him in because of his age, he could fight it was pressured and influenced.

Imagine that. The Army training you to be a soldier. WTF were they thinking? I think it's obvious that he signed up for a paycheck and reneged on the contract when he learned that he might actually have to man up and be a soldier. Something he signed up for. This is akin to signing a contract to do a job and then running away when it's time to start work.

Have you ever had a job you thought would be good, then realized wasn't for you later down the road and you quit?

Regardless, debating with you further is pointless, because you haven't even bothered to respond to my so-called "Double Post" evidence which basically allowed them a ligitamate defense to refusal of service.

I am not going to repeat anything else further in this matter that you have missed, because I have no reason to repeat my actions several times to get things through your head, because you have no patience in reading what has already been provided to futher educated your stance and possibly strengthen your current position, or even weaken it.... but you have not bothered to add any new information to your personal opinions in this debate, therefore this is a continual loop I am getting out of....

anybody else have anything to say?

[ruksak]

• I state my opinion on something. • Someone doesn't believe me and asks for evidence. • I supply the evidence. • I am told it doesn't cover enough and that it's not in detail. • I then supply detailed evidence. • I am then told it's too long and their too lazy to read it

Praxius man c'mon. Knock off the drama would ya. This isn't a college thesis. I'm not going to sit here and make sure 100% that I have responded to every single god damn point you think you made during the course of two very long consecutive posts.

I asked you to point out if I missed anything and what. I asked you for the proof of other nations that had prosecuted their own soldiers. And instead of maturely providing me with this information, you get all bent and spew personal comments. Despite the fact that you are lying and trying to send me on a wild goose chase for sh*t that isn't there.

Nice try though. In the future, if some says "Oh, my bad I didn't notice that I missed a point or question", JUST F*CKING ASK THE GOD DAMN QUESTION AGAIN!!!!

How pitiful. I am beginning to see what others were saying about the level of debate in these forums.

THIS ISN'T A F*CKING JOB, OK? I have a job. And a family.

I'm gonna say this one more f*cking time kid.

IF I MISSED A POINT OR QUESTION POSED BY YOU, IT MAY BE JUST A MISTAKE OR OVERSIGHT. SIMPLY ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN.

Spare us all your childish angst. You spent a few hundred words attacking me personally as if I was trying to dodge. I DON'T dodge, ever. With a fraction of the effort you used to type that tirade, you could have kept this thread flowing and just reiterated whatever it is you think I missed. The posts you are referring to were very lengthly and included several links to very long articles. I just might miss something in all that.

Don't just assume I'm being dishonest or evasive or lazy.

Oh give it up, seriously.... I see no evidence proving this not being true.... you have these guys as two leading heads in the media over this matter.... I think our government intelligence would know a few things about who's crossing our borders and who's applying for refugee/citizenship/asylum status more then you do.

Then were is it Prax? Where's this evidence that hundreds of American soldiers are heading to Canada?

You don't have it do you. Except for that liberal rag you linked to that was LYING. I think it would be in a major newspaper, don't you? I checked with the;
Calgary Herald
Edmonton Journal
Montreal Gazette
Ottawa Citizen
Vancouver Sun

No mention of this supposed stream of American soldiers defecting. You called me ignorant for protesting that claim, and you never backed it up.

I will not go forth with this discussion with you until you clear up these allegations you made toward me by posting what it is I didn't address. As well, you aren't gonna dodge out with your weak ass redirect of simply saying "I already posted it, and you didn't see it". That sh*t don't fly brother. Where is it?

David Copperfield you are not.

[Praxius]

First, you need to take a pill.

Second, this isn't my job either, and I have my own life as well.... that doesn't excuse me from opening my eyes and taking some time to read.

Third.... you want your evidence on how many have deserted? Go look up your country's military records, whichever ones they permit you to view anyways.... check the total amount of soldiers who have enlisted and then check how many went AWOL.... it's not like some big secret number everybody it trying to hide.... if one can count, one can view how many have left.... heck if our own country can access the information, a common US citizen should be able to.

I suppose I have to spoon feed you this as well:

The Scotsman - Huge rise in US army deserters

United States soldiers are deserting at the highest rate since 1980, with the numbers up 80 per cent since the US invaded Iraq in 2003. While the totals are still far lower than they were during the Vietnam war, when conscription was in effect, they show a steady increase over the past four years. According to the US army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in 12 months to 30 September, compared with nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared with 3,301 last year.

Acording to your own country's reports... not some liberal BS you claimed it to be.... so once again... go educate yourself.

Here have another:

Prosecution of U.S. Army deserters rise - International Herald Tribune

U.S. Army prosecutions of desertion and other unauthorized absences have risen sharply in the past four years, resulting in thousands more negative discharges and prison time for junior soldiers and combat-tested veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, military records show. The increased prosecutions are meant, in effect, to serve as a deterrent to a growing number of soldiers who might be looking for a way to avoid heading - or heading back - to Iraq, several army lawyers said during interviews. The use of courts-martial for these violations, which before 2002 were treated mostly as unpunished nuisances, is a sign that active-duty forces are being stretched to their limits, said military lawyers and mental health experts. "They are scraping to get people to go back, and people are worn out," said Thomas Grieger, a senior U.S. Navy psychiatrist. Though there are no current studies to show how combat stress affects desertion rates, Grieger, cited several examples of soldiers absconding or refusing to return to Iraq because of psychiatric reasons brought on by wartime deployments. At an army base in Alaska last year, for example, "there was one guy who literally chopped off his trigger finger with an axe to prevent his deployment," Grieger said.

Now as it goes for War Crimes from soldiers outside of your country.... if I can spend 2 damn seconds to get this information, then you can spend 1 second getting that information.

I don't see how I have to continually repeat links and posts over and over again for things which should be common sense.

[Praxius]

Oh yeah, and Individual soldiers being charged with war crimes doesn't really seem all that related to the topic at hand, which is another reason why I'm delving much into it.

[ruksak]

Those are statistics for desertion, not defection. Which was the issue in dispute. But your point is noted. I have no time for a full response. Just toking a cig and reading through this. I'll get back to this Saturday night.

[Praxius]

yeah no rush.... it's all talk anyways I'll be kicking around... unless the bus gets me next time. But hey, anything is possible.

But the original debate which I started in this thread was about deserters, the statistics I am showing are for deserters.... this was the main thing I have been trying to stay on, were deserters and their rights to refuse to fight in a war such as this one.

But anywho....

Usually defectors are willing to share state secrets which they know from the country they are defecting from, in order to obtain citizenship. These guys are seeking asylum, have not offered any top secret information on the US, nor do I imagine they have any.

An example of defections would be the Berlin Wall.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Praxius But the original debate which I started in this thread was about deserters, the statistics I am showing are for deserters.... this was the main thing I have been trying to stay on, were deserters and their rights to refuse to fight in a war such as this one.

Hey I got a few while my daughter sleeps.

As an aside; I have a cousin that deserted this summer and a son of a good friend that did the same. Both are back in active duty, no prosecution was sought. They both deserted as a manifestation of "Second thoughts" rather than moral difference.

One point I want to make is my issue with Army recruiters and their dubious tactics. Some of which have been either overtly or borderline illegal. The advertising and "marketing" of military recruiting seems quite misleading. They attach a "cool video game genre" feel to it.

Kids get sucked into this so easy. They have no direction as they are about tho leave high school. Their parents finances nor their grades allow them easy college entrance. Then they run into the scrupulous "pack 'o' wolves" recruiters in their school lunch room.

All the sudden they have their direction. They sign up feeling a sense of accomplishment. Time passes and reality sinks in. This is what happened to my cousin. Now he's training in Fort Hood, I believe, and god knows what will become of him.

Quote by: Praxius Second, this isn't my job either, and I have my own life as well.... that doesn't excuse me from opening my eyes and taking some time to read.

I didn't mean to infer that you were an unemployed loser. Only that sometimes I post on a "life break" while I smoke a cig away from my daughter. She freaks out like she's gonna fall over dead if she smells smoke, so I retreat into the bedroom and piss around on this board sometimes.

Being that's the case I may sometimes miss the point in which you were making. I try hard to never dodge a tough question or a valid point that conflicts one I may have made. One thing I hope many of you have learned is that I am one of the few that will fess up and admit when I was wrong. Many WILL NOT do this ever. Call it E-pride or whatever.

The Scotsman - Huge rise in US army deserters Quote: United States soldiers are deserting at the highest rate since 1980, with the numbers up 80 per cent since the US invaded Iraq in 2003. While the totals are still far lower than they were during the Vietnam war, when conscription was in effect, they show a steady increase over the past four years. According to the US army, about nine in every 1,000 soldiers deserted in 12 months to 30 September, compared with nearly seven per 1,000 a year earlier. Overall, 4,698 soldiers deserted this year, compared with 3,301 last year. Acording to your own country's reports... not some liberal BS you claimed it to be.... so once again... go educate yourself. Here have another: Prosecution of U.S. Army deserters rise - International Herald Tribune Quote: U.S. Army prosecutions of desertion and other unauthorized absences have risen sharply in the past four years, resulting in thousands more negative discharges and prison time for junior soldiers and combat-tested veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, military records show. The increased prosecutions are meant, in effect, to serve as a deterrent to a growing number of soldiers who might be looking for a way to avoid heading - or heading back - to Iraq, several army lawyers said during interviews. The use of courts-martial for these violations, which before 2002 were treated mostly as unpunished nuisances, is a sign that active-duty forces are being stretched to their limits, said military lawyers and mental health experts. "They are scraping to get people to go back, and people are worn out," said Thomas Grieger, a senior U.S. Navy psychiatrist. Though there are no current studies to show how combat stress affects desertion rates, Grieger, cited several examples of soldiers absconding or refusing to return to Iraq because of psychiatric reasons brought on by wartime deployments. At an army base in Alaska last year, for example, "there was one guy who literally chopped off his trigger finger with an axe to prevent his deployment," Grieger said.

I appreciate these valid links and understand your point. I was more concerned with your statements eluding to the fact that "hundreds of American soldiers are defecting into Canada". This may be true, but I am hearing nothing of the sort.

The media down here is hard to extrapolate valid currents affairs from. Rather we do get a high dose of "Whats up with Brittney Spears. Paris Hilton and OJ".

Most deserters I've heard word of just kinda hang low within American borders and eventually get reincorporated back into the ranks by way of threats of prosecution.

Now as it goes for War Crimes from soldiers outside of your country.... if I can spend 2 damn seconds to get this information, then you can spend 1 second getting that information. I don't see how I have to continually repeat links and posts over and over again for things which should be common sense.

I've checked and rechecked. Googled til my clickin finger hurt, and yet I see no evidence of the Japanese Imperial Army, The Nazi party, The North Korean Government, The Vietnamese government ever prosecuting a single soldier for a war crime. Either during wartime or not. So I stand by this. My assertion that American soldiers may go astray and commit atrocities. However when this info is made public they ARE severely punished and prosecuted.

Quote by: THX1138 Well, the eleventh hour is already ticking with the recruitment numbers, being too severe is not going to really help bring those numbers back up. As I said before they made a stupid mistake.

The integrity of our military is at stake. I feel sorry for these boys if indeed they did make a stupid youthful mistake, as I eluded to at the top of this post, but they must understand. They are going to be held accountable because the integrity of their Nations military is at stake. Give them a free pass and the precedent is set. A firebomb of desertions and defections will occur. Leaving our military in a volatile and compromising position. This cannot stand.

[thx1138]

The integrity of our military is at stake. I feel sorry for these boys if indeed they did make a stupid youthful mistake, as I eluded to at the top of this post, but they must understand. They are going to be held accountable because the integrity of their Nations military is at stake. Give them a free pass and the precedent is set. A firebomb of desertions and defections will occur. Leaving our military in a volatile and compromising position. This cannot stand.

Well there needs to be a better job done with informing new recruits about just what they may be asked to do if they join the military. Make them understand if they join they may be asked to kill people and not just other with guns but women and children. Show them videos of Iraq of troops dying, being wounded, losing limbs, and the dead bodies of the civilians killed after a military operation.

After that if they join then they know with open eyes what will be asked of them. Showing just the fun parts like jumping out of planes and dreams of money for school after they get out is the problem.

[xyzer]

Prax..Your problem is you ignore the evidence and instead hitch you rant to the demagoguery of the anti war crowd. Bush lied! The war is illegal? There were no WMDs..One can't take you seriously because your interpretations of events are so shallow and subjective that they don't indicate you are interested in truth? It's the Cindy Sheehan type prattle that demagogues like to use. By the way you don't know a damn thing about the military and the seriousness of desertion in time of war and yet you have a conciliatory opinion about the lawbreakers who do it? In wartime desertion has been punishable by death? It's recognized as serious by most nations in the world.

The war in Iraq was started witn both UN and Congressional approval. Thats the "Correct"way in this country. Legislative law making in a representative Democracy? Bush didn't lie, his statements were made within the confines of oue intelligence estimates and events at the time!
Saddam did have WMD (Chemical and Biological) at the time. We also knew he didn't have an active nuclear weapons program,(And Bush didn't claim he did),the Israelis destroyed that capability in the 1980s!

Iraq had also violated its Desert Storm Peace concession and was militarily attacking US Aircraft patrolling the airspace in conformance with the treaty...An act of war to us realists.Hussein was a an autocratic butcher who had attacked his neighbors and supported terrorism, even giving rewards to the relatives of suicide bombers?

I could go on but I'm sure the truth will as usual bounce off your ridiculous shield of nonsense and misinformation.? I appreciate your attempt at expressing opinions, but they would be taken more seriously if they contained a modicum of truth?

[thx1138]

We also knew he didn't have an active nuclear weapons program,(And Bush didn't claim he did),the Israelis destroyed that capability in the 1980s!

Here we go again.. before you had said that the bush co. never said anything about the threat of a mushroom cloud over a US city to scare people into seeing Iraq as a nuclear threat you were wrong then and wrong now.
What the hell is he talking about in this speech...
Bush's Mushroom Cloud as a Smoking Gun Speech

I could go on but I'm sure the truth will as usual bounce off your ridiculous shield of nonsense and misinformation.

[Praxius]

Quote by: xyzer Prax..Your problem is you ignore the evidence and instead hitch you rant to the demagoguery of the anti war crowd. Bush lied! The war is illegal? There were no WMDs..One can't take you seriously because your interpretations of events are so shallow and subjective that they don't indicate you are interested in truth?

There is no other truth at play. All of the above is as shallow and true to the point it just hurts the head.... do you think I'm happy all of this has occured in the last few years of our lives?

If Canada was the one who invaded Iraq and the US didn't join in, as the role reversed and all.... I wouldn't second guess canadian soldiers fleeing across the US border... don't think that my opinions on this situation are unbalanced, because I see this as just as equal to the British Empire deciding to goto war over something stupid and using Scotts and the Irish as disposable foot soldiers to save their british soldiers, for they deemed them more valuable.

In other words soldiers being sent off with the known intnetions that most of them will die for no paticular cause other to benifit the better off..... it was wrong to treat humans like this back then, and it's still wrong today.

It's the Cindy Sheehan type prattle that demagogues like to use. By the way you don't know a damn thing about the military and the seriousness of desertion in time of war and yet you have a conciliatory opinion about the lawbreakers who do it? In wartime desertion has been punishable by death? It's recognized as serious by most nations in the world.

Yeah, so was witch burnings at one time.... in other words it's an arcaic practice passed on from the empires in which you fought so hard to be seperated from, due to their oppression and desire for absolute control.

If you have a truly free country, you won't need to force your soldiers to fight, they'd be willing to die to protect that freedom on their own. A sign that thousands of your soldiers are deserting and who are fully aware of the consiquences, then that should be a sign to you that something isn't right in the fact that they are not willing to lay down their lives for what has been presented to them. If they don't have a level of understanding that their sacrafice of life is worth the objective, then why should they just throw their lives away?

You claim I know nothing about the military, I claim you know nothing about me. I am already aware of the old penalties of desertion and how many would face death.... the Soviets used this practice with great skill during WWII.... you guys haven't even touched their level of enforcement in this aspect.... .when you do, come back and talk to me about enforcement and punishments of death.

I am not telling you how it is, but how it should be.

The war in Iraq was started witn both UN and Congressional approval. Thats the "Correct"way in this country. Legislative law making in a representative Democracy? Bush didn't lie, his statements were made within the confines of oue intelligence estimates and events at the time!

Oh lame as hell.... it's got nothing to do with democracy when you have people in the process who hold powers of veto, because they just defeats the entire process to begin with, which forces the decision to the one person or country with that power.

OOOooo.... technically they approved it.... wow... because as I already pointed out, if they didn't the UN risked dismantilation and the US would have been able to go start the war regardless.

Oh yes, Bush didn't lie at all.... it was only reporting information which he had assurances were to be true....... so instead of actually acting based on evidence, he went to war based on Hearsay.... which is just as damn bad as lieing to the country and the world, as it is clear negligence on his part to be a respectable and responsible leader.

Assurances.... pssh.... yeah I'll buy that for a dollar.

Saddam did have WMD (Chemical and Biological) at the time. We also knew he didn't have an active nuclear weapons program,(And Bush didn't claim he did),the Israelis destroyed that capability in the 1980s!

Oh he did did he? Where's the evidence? Oh yeah... there was none found.... yeah... there's that faith in assurances again

Oh but somehow that became absolute fact in the process of twisting their information.

Like the example I posted earlier about how the US was claiming Iran was training Iraqi insurgents in their country because they captured an Iraqi who admitted to being trained in Syria...... now how the hell did Syria become Iran all of a sudden?

Iraq had also violated its Desert Storm Peace concession and was militarily attacking US Aircraft patrolling the airspace in conformance with the treaty...

That's absolute BS which was also proven above in the UN report I linked.... as they pointed out that US aircraft were continually passing through the designated "NO FLY ZONES" so they had every damn right to shoot your asses down.... and I hope they got a few of you too.

An act of war to us realists.Hussein was a an autocratic butcher who had attacked his neighbors and supported terrorism, even giving rewards to the relatives of suicide bombers? I could go on but I'm sure the truth will as usual bounce off your ridiculous shield of nonsense and misinformation.? I appreciate your attempt at expressing opinions, but they would be taken more seriously if they contained a modicum of truth?

Yeah my shield of links, resources evidence and proof which to you is nonsense..... exactly where is your proof of all your nonsense you have just wasted my time with? Oh yeah, like others, you don't have any.

But I suppose me questioning baseless and inacurate information which appears to have been taken right off the TV and what bush said a few years back, must make me full of nonsense.....

[Praxius]

Quote by: thx1138 Here we go again.. before you had said that the bush co. never said anything about the threat of a mushroom cloud over a US city to scare people into seeing Iraq as a nuclear threat you were wrong then and wrong now. What the hell is he talking about in this speech... Bush's Mushroom Cloud as a Smoking Gun Speech I could go on but I'm sure the truth will as usual bounce off your ridiculous shield of nonsense and misinformation.

Indeed... I love how those who provide no accurate information are the ones who start the personal attacks in regards to comprehension.

[xyzer]

HMM? This one also says it all.

Here we go again.. before you had said that the bush co. never said anything about the threat of a mushroom cloud over a US city to scare people into seeing Iraq as a nuclear threat you were wrong then and wrong now. What the hell is he talking about in this speech...

I read the speech thx and it was, as I previously mentioned, in tune with the truth of the matter. It outlined the runaway foreign policy of Saddam Hussein and rationalized that such a murderer and threat to the peace of the world should be stopped or ther might be "mushroom clouds" over us all. Are you also so subjective as to deny the worldwide intelligence on the Iraqi threat at the time. Do you also shut yourself behind a wall of disbelief when an autocrat invades his neighbors(Iran and Kuwait) gases the Kurds and generally promote international terrorism? Would you also countenance a foreign power shooting at your nations aircraft on recognized (legal) patrol missions over Iraq? If so you don't have an ounce of patriotism in your soul.

Here is another beyond belief observation...

If Canada was the one who invaded Iraq and the US didn't join in, as the role reversed and all.... I wouldn't second guess canadian soldiers fleeing across the US border... don't think that my opinions on this situation are unbalanced, because I see this as just as equal to the British Empire deciding to goto war over something stupid and using Scotts and the Irish as disposable foot soldiers to save their british soldiers, for they deemed them more valuable.

So now we have the victim group philosophy thrown into the mix. I wasn't aware that Scotts and Irish were drafted into the British Army.. I suppose Canada shouldn't have sent troops to help the beleaguered British during WW2?
As I pointed out Prax, if Canada had an Igloo War with the Innuits or some other tribe in the niorth and protesting Canadian Army volunteers deserted to the USA would you want the US to return them for trial for desertion?
Get real...you've been too many funny books and seeing too many Holllywood productions and it shows?

[Praxius]

Quote by: xyzer I read the speech thx and it was, as I previously mentioned, in tune with the truth of the matter. It outlined the runaway foreign policy of Saddam Hussein and rationalized that such a murderer and threat to the peace of the world should be stopped or ther might be "mushroom clouds" over us all.

Fear mongering.

Are you also so subjective as to deny the worldwide intelligence on the Iraqi threat at the time.

His military was in no position to be a threat to anybody and his "War Machine" was inactive at the time of invasion.... hince why he was so easily defeated at the time. And there was no Worldwide intelligence proving this, as the UN report above shows there were no grounds for this invasion.

Do you also shut yourself behind a wall of disbelief when an autocrat invades his neighbors(Iran and Kuwait) gases the Kurds and generally promote international terrorism?

This situation already occured in the early 90's, you guys attacked them and prevented their mission from being complete.... end of story.... how do you find justification to come back over a decade later to blow the snot out of them again due to something already dealt with previously?

Would you also countenance a foreign power shooting at your nations aircraft on recognized (legal) patrol missions over Iraq? If so you don't have an ounce of patriotism in your soul.

Still wrong, yet again.... since you also have difficulty reading, I shall further waste my time and repeat past reports:

The repeated intrusions by US marines, since 4 March 2002, into the demilitarized zone between Iraq and Kuwait, reported to the Security Council by United Nations peacekeepers, constitute a serious breach of the Security Council resolution on the basis of which the zone was set up after the Gulf War ceasefire in 1991.

They were clearly not reconized, nor where they "Legal" so you have no grounds of defense for these pilots and being shot at.

Here is another beyond belief observation... So now we have the victim group philosophy thrown into the mix. I wasn't aware that Scotts and Irish were drafted into the British Army. I suppose Canada shouldn't have sent troops to help the beleaguered British during WW2?

*smacks head* ~ try going back a couple more centuries to know what I am talking about.

As I pointed out Prax, if Canada had an Igloo War with the Innuits or some other tribe in the niorth and protesting Canadian Army volunteers deserted to the USA would you want the US to return them for trial for desertion?

First, did I not just explain my position?

Second.... that's a very bad example for your defense. This stero-typical and ignorant situation you have describe would be an issue in regards to natives and groups who are reconized as citizens of this country..... to send off our troops against citizens of our country would go against pretty much everything in which our country stands for..... therefore any and all soldiers should have the very right to refuse to fight their fellow citizens for oppression purposes, and thus I would promote their abilities to not goto fight by any means they found nessicary.

In order for this above situation to even remotely relate to the point you are trying to make, the situation would have to involve us invading another country for selfish purposes, not internal disputes within the country, and not from being invaded.

Perhaps if we invaded Russia, as they're the closest country north of us for your equations, then you may have an example that can be related to..... but even then my stance still stands....

But us invading Russia is kinda silly, let alone Russia invading us.... as we have better relations with them then you guys do.

Get real...you've been too many funny books and seeing too many Holllywood productions and it shows?

Really? Funny, all examples I have provided were actual facts and reports from the "REAL WORLD" What have you provided to back up your claims?

Oh yeah... NOTHING! Best you look into the mirror with that response.