Witness blames RCMP, Vancouver airport for death of Tasered man

[Osborn F Enready]

Witness blames RCMP, Vancouver airport for death of Tasered man

"I think the responsible parties are the Vancouver Airport and the RCMP for not having other negotiating tactics once he's at the heightened state," said Meltzer, who was the person who called in RCMP. He said he clearly warned them the man didn't speak English. Meltzer claimed the officers gave Dziekanski two commands in English and within seconds Tasered him after he held a stapler in an apparent threatening manner. Robert Dziekanski, seen in this picture taken in Poland, was a construction worker in his home country. (Global) "He [Dziekanski] raised the stapler in the air and they [RCMP] said, 'Put your hands on the desk,' in English," Meltzer said. Meltzer said the RCMP were too hasty to use the Taser and he refutes the police claim that the area was too crowded to use pepper spray, because "it was empty." Dziekanski was Tasered by RCMP and later died. Police and a witness conflict in the number of jolts the man is alleged to have received. RCMP insist that the man was zapped two times, but Sima Ashrafinia, who was at the airport and recorded the incident on her cellphone, told CBC News on Monday that RCMP officers stunned Dziekanski four times.

A Polish man who spoke no English, dealt with harshly at Canadian Airport, and tasered after about 30 seconds to a minute of "attempting to calm him".

On top of this, the airport had no EMT's on site, and it took over 11 minutes for them to respond. The man died.

Sounds like Canadians might want to pay attention to their own nations police state tactics for a while?

[brien]

Whooooo, the guy was threatening the Canadian authorities with none other than a stapler???

I guess that is about a lethal as you can get in a nation that has such strict gun control laws. Cops get dumbed down to feel threatened by all of those deadly staplers.

I yi yi...

[Praxius]

Oh jeez, you guys are missing most of the story... have you watched the video?

Actually the RCMP attempted to keep the video, and the owner of the video as well as the man's mother fought to make it public, which it became so yesterday I believe.

It's not just the Taser that was in question, but also the excessive force used on him after he was already on the ground.

CTV.ca | Tasered man was lost, seeking help, mother says


Robert Dziekanski holds a small table at the Vancouver Airport in this image from video.

The mother of a Polish immigrant who died after RCMP officers used a Taser on him can't understand why police didn't simply arrest her son before using force. Walter Kosteckyj, the lawyer for Zofia Cisowski, said his client was stunned after watching a video of the confrontation that resulted in her son's death. "Her position is basically this: 'I see my son lost, looking for help. When he sees the police he's calling out for them, I tried to get help, he tried to get help and this is the way things have ended up.'" The video shows Polish national Robert Dziekanski in the early morning hours of Oct. 14 at the international arrivals terminal of Vancouver International Airport. Dziekanski is breathing heavily and appears agitated. At one point he barricades himself behind glass doors and throws a computer and small table at the doors. But he appears to calm down when four officers arrive on the scene, raising his hands and backing up in what appears to be a gesture of surrender. The officers don't attempt to subdue the 40-year-old man as they surround him. But seconds later Dziekanski screams in pain, staggers, and then falls to the ground after being shot by an electric stun gun, or Taser. Kosteckyj said his client doesn't understand why police apparently acted with such force. He said the four officers arrived on the scene and headed straight to the suspect without securing the scene, asking questions or getting background, or even moving a nearby witness -- steps he suggested could have resulted in a peaceful end to the confrontation. After the Taser is used, Dziekanski appears to writhe in pain, while police pin his arms, legs, and head to the ground and handcuff him. As three officers hold Dziekanski down, there appears to be a second attempt to Taser him. After he's restrained, an officer places his knee on his neck and holds it there. After several seconds, Dziekanski seems to stop writhing as he lies pinned on his stomach and appears to lose consciousness. An officer takes his pulse at his neck. None of the officers appear to try and revive him. Police reaction Cpl. Dale Carr, a spokesperson for the RCMP, said judgment should not be cast until all the information has been gathered. "Our reaction is that our testimony will come out at the coroner's inquest and it will offer perspective on what the police officers were going through and what all the other witnesses were going through at the time and they'll be testifying under oath," Carr told CTV's Canada AM on Thursday. He said a much more complete picture will develop as the result of the police investigation, which is still ongoing, and a coroner's inquest that will probe the circumstances of Dziekanski's death. Emergency radio logs leaked to CTV British Columbia show a 12-minute gap from when Dziekanski lost consciousness and when B.C. Ambulance arrived. The airport has its own paramedics who could have been at the scene within two minutes, but the airport supervisor did not call them, CTV British Columbia reported. For reasons that are still not clear, it took 10 hours for Dziekanski to clear customs. He and his mother never connected, and she left the airport to return to Kamloops. The Polish government has called for a full probe of the tragedy. Paul Pritchard, the witness who taped the incident on his video camera, told Canada AM on Thursday that Dziekanski appeared scared and seeking help when police arrived. He said he never felt threatened by the man. "He was acting irrationally, but in my opinion he was acting scared," Pritchard said. He said Dziekanski even put his arms out in a gesture of defeat and showed no signs he was going to resist arrest. He said the four officers seemed intent on using a Taser despite Dziekanski's apparent willingness to surrender. The situation escalated quickly once they did. "It became a real situation all of a sudden. I was just filming for the sake of an entertainment standpoint, but once they Tasered him you heard this bloodcurdling scream. I still think about it," Pritchard said. Another cellphone video of the fatal confrontation had been released previously but this latest video is of much higher quality. Other witnesses also said they didn't feel threatened by Dziekanski. The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP has filed its own complaint about the case. The RCMP's Integrated Homicide Investigation Team is also investigating the incident. Dziekanski will be buried on Saturday at 11 a.m. in Kamloops.

Robert Dziekanski is seen on the ground of Vancouver International Airport moments after being Tasered by RCMP officers on Oct. 14, 2007.


RCMP officers subdue Robert Dziekanski shortly after Tasering him at Vancouver International Airport on Oct. 14, 2007.

It is apparent that the use of the taser was apparently unessicary.

What they did not point out in the video, is as the RCMP officers passed the man video taping the situation, one voice was recorded clearly before Robert was in their view "Can I use the Taser?" and you hear another reply "Yes" before they even know what the situation was.

The other aspect on this, is it is not proven if the taser cause his death, or was it the officers on his neck and back which cut off his air?

Was it both??

This is not the first case of someone dieing from the use of a Taser here in Canada, and it raises the questions on whether they are useful tools of defense or cause more problems then they solve.

To me, this isn't some image that our police are corrupt or Nazi SS as some may want to potray them.... this is a problem in both the US and Canada, when it comes to officers using tasers when not needed.... such as our well known buddy at Kerry's thing in Florida.

Would it have been a different situation if he died when he was tasered off the podium?

To me, I agree the situation was handled poorly and without proper protocal.

However, on the RCMP's side of the story, they were called to the scene where a beligerant man was throwing computers and tables around at the airport..... when you are only provided with that information, it is a bit difficult to determine if he would have been violent towards the officers..... was he going to throw the stapler at the officers?

But they should have informed themselves of the situation by the nearby bystanders who have had a better understanding of the situation before they approached him, that is obvious.

Quite honestly, I have no like for tasers and they should either be banned or limited in their use.

[jose]

Just imagine for a minute the Headline, Canadian citizen tazered, killed by Polish Police

[Milton Bradley]

I have to say, I'm so tired of these tasing incidents, if confronted with a situation where I might be a target for tasing, I'm gonna fight, and fight hard.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I'm gonna fight, and fight hard.

If you do that, they might move beyond a taser...

[Praxius]

Quote by: jose Just imagine for a minute the Headline, Canadian citizen tazered, killed by Polish Police

How about one better about a Canadian Citizen being sent off to Syria by the US to be tortured?

If you want to delve into the headline speculation a bit, that headline wouldn't bother me so much as it could mean many things.... it's the content and information I find important, not a headline.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I have to say, I'm so tired of these tasing incidents, if confronted with a situation where I might be a target for tasing, I'm gonna fight, and fight hard.

Yeah does anybody remember the good old days when you'd just get a crack or two from a nightstick?

Now they have their own portable electric chair.... and yeah sure... I've been electricuted badly several times in my life, but I imagine the next time my body won't be able to handle it... and somebody charging me multiple times by a taser in an incident doesn't sound very healthy to me.

In honesty, the actions of these officers do not match my own experience from many other officers, both local Police as well as RCMP. I wonder if it had anything to do with them being a bit more paranoid considdering two RCMP officers were recently shot and killed in the last month or so out west and north.

RCMP officer shot to death in Nunavut hamlet

and

CANOE -- CNEWS - Canada: Police across western Canada search for Alberta man charged with killing Mountie

There have been a few high profile RCMP officer shootings in the last couple of years, including one where two RCMP officers were shot in their heads by a drug trafficker who was known to hate police..... Speculation abound, I wonder if any of this had an effect on their judgement, as not to boast, but Canadian police officers, both local and RCMP are not commonly seen on the TV as victims in a crime.

I'm not saying or giving these guys any excuses for their actions, but if training tells them to use a taser with a beligerant person who was throwing things around the airport and causing a scene.... someone who was more violent then some University Student asking some questions.... then taser use I would say was justified.... TECHNICALLY.

Their approach to this situation however was greatly flawed and they overall did the wrong thing here... I'm just curious as to why.

[ruksak]

Video: Breitbart.tv » Shock Video Shows Man Tasered to Death at Vancouver Airport

Tasers save more lives than can be accounted for. Maybe if this idiot wasn't so worked up he would not have died. I could care less about this idiot.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I have to say, I'm so tired of these tasing incidents, if confronted with a situation where I might be a target for tasing, I'm gonna fight, and fight hard.

LOL................................Jesus are you trying to be funny? Thats how people get tased.

[Osborn F Enready]

ruksak said: Tasers save more lives than can be accounted for. Maybe if this idiot wasn't so worked up he would not have died. I could care less about this idiot.

Many people could care less about you, or your opinion.

The fact is, tasers are ADVERTISED as "non-lethal weapons", which by now, as the evidence stacks up of deaths by taser, should be found as false advertising in court, and the sellers sued.

Police departments should also be held to the same measure to use tasers, as their registered side arms.

Is there anytime you aren't being a cheerleader for authoritarianism?

[ruksak]

Quote by: Osborn Many people could care less about you, or your opinion.

We aren't talking about me. We are talking about the players involved in this case.

The fact is, tasers are ADVERTISED as "non-lethal weapons",

They are non-lethal when used properly, providing that there are no extenuating circumstances. Technically they are classified as "less-than-lethal. Which is a bit different.

Is there anytime you aren't being a cheerleader for authoritarianism?

Yes. Quite often.

If you guys would post real examples of police brutality as opposed to these ticky-tack piss poor examples, you would see my protest come out. There are plenty of them out there.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak Video: Breitbart.tv » Shock Video Shows Man Tasered to Death at Vancouver Airport Tasers save more lives than can be accounted for. Maybe if this idiot wasn't so worked up he would not have died. I could care less about this idiot.

You are more ignorant on the situation then you realize.

But before I even get to that, I am watching my local news, where they interviewed family members of people who died from Taser related incidences by police in the past. Two people died here in my provience in the last two years in situations where tasers were not required.

One person they interviewed was a retired police officer and he states that in our forces, tasers are only to be used as a last option prior to the use of firearms.

So clearly these officers are in the wrong, and this has caught the attention of the entire country.

Now Ruksak back to you being ignorant on the information:

1st - He was stuck in the airpot for over 10 hours (TEN HOURS)

2nd - Nobody employed at the airport spoke his language nor did anybody seem to want to help him until a bystander attempted to communicate with him.

3rd - Nobody there who witnessed this felt as if they were threatened by him, and eye witnesses stated he looked extremely tired and frustrated..... and who wouldn't be, being stuck in an airpot for 10 hours with no end in sight? I imagine I'd go a little bonkers too.

4th - Employees at the airport told his mother that he never arrived, so she went home.... all the while this was happening.

5th - This isn't just pinned on the RCMP officers due to their actions, but I feel some responsibility should fall on officials at the airport as well for not dealing with this matter properly before this all occured with the officers.

In all, 18 people have died in Canada since 2001 after being shocked by a Taser. Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day says the device has been used more than 8,000 times by police in Canada since being introduced six years ago.

Prince George Citizen - Taser moratorium

Also from Amnesty International Canada:

Police chiefs, with support from federal officials, must conduct a rigorous, independent and impartial study of the impact and use of tasers before they are implicated in more deaths, says Amnesty International in a new study released today. There is a rising number of deaths in custody, nine in Canada in the last fifteen months and over 60 in the United States in the last three years, after use of the weapon.

Knowing how things like this occur in Canada, I would guess a revamp of the proceedures involving tasers will be changed shortly, as the public won't put up with it.

Also... as a side note to those who want to nazi-ize out police for being brutal and such... in comparison to other situations involving taser related deaths, nobody is attempting to immediatly excuse their actions as being just, but are being straight forward and looking into the matter.

In my opinion, these officers we're blaitently in the wrong, the Taser should not have been used, let alone twice, and they should have tried to difuse the situation before they zapped the hell out of him and tackled him.

Frig I can already think of several other ways this could have been resolved peacefully.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak If you guys would post real examples of police brutality as opposed to these ticky-tack piss poor examples, you would see my protest come out. There are plenty of them out there.

If you don't believe this is a situation to be concerned about and you don't care.... then why are you bothering to post in here about something you don't care about?

[Praxius]

Oh, it's back on the news:

Oh, and it's in Parlament and there is going to be a full review to prevent this from occuring again, or at least reduce it.

Listening to the audio again, he was still throwing things around in front of the officers as they were coming.... he stopped and calmed down when they got to him.... so there is still the possibility that the officers felt threatened, but I still find it uncalled for.

They are now currently interviewing some Polish Canadians, and plenty are pretty pissed, as well they should be.

Lots of talk about proceedure not being followed.

~ Now interviewing his uncle, and he states he was afraid of moving to Canada, as he was never been here before, and his mother talked him into coming.... so he had a phobia so to speak, and then all this occured.... talk about a screwed up mess this is.

And it all could have been resolved so differently.

I think the main thing that sticks into my head is the audio of the officers asking if they can use the taser, even before they approached him.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Praxius Now Ruksak back to you being ignorant on the information: 1st - He was stuck in the airpot for over 10 hours (TEN HOURS) 2nd - Nobody employed at the airport spoke his language nor did anybody seem to want to help him until a bystander attempted to communicate with him. 3rd - Nobody there who witnessed this felt as if they were threatened by him, and eye witnesses stated he looked extremely tired and frustrated..... and who wouldn't be, being stuck in an airpot for 10 hours with no end in sight? I imagine I'd go a little bonkers too. 4th - Employees at the airport told his mother that he never arrived, so she went home.... all the while this was happening. 5th - This isn't just pinned on the RCMP officers due to their actions, but I feel some responsibility should fall on officials at the airport as well for not dealing with this matter properly before this all occured with the officers.

You are more ignorant on the situation then you realize.

ORLY?
I am attacking peoples ignorance of the taser, how it is applied and how it leads to death.

Do you know what "Excitement Delirium" is? This is the cause of this mans death in this case. Police need to recognize when people are suffering from this phenomenon.

The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology - Abstract: Volume 20(2) June 1999 p 120-127 Cocaine-Associated Rhabdomyolysis and Excited Delirium: Different Stages of the Same Syndrome.

Excited delirium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NPR : Tasers Implicated in Excited Delirium Deaths

Excited delirium can occur in people that have had no drugs at all. Actually simulating syptoms of a cocaine overdose

700,000 applications of the taser here in America. Only approximately 100 deaths can be connected with the taser.

Field Use and Statistics

Lots of useful nuggets in there.

Here's something else for you to chew on Prax my boy. We can get rid of the taser altogether. But that will do NOTHING to lower instances of suspects violently and physically confronting the cops. The cops will have to use other less safe means of confrontation. Many times they will have to draw their guns and fire. Fact: A cop can disarm and dissolve a knife wielding crackhead with a taser and not get hurt. Fact: Take the taser away and the cop will use his gun 100% of the time in this instance.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Praxius If you don't believe this is a situation to be concerned about and you don't care.... then why are you bothering to post in here about something you don't care about?

When I see an enraged man wielding a weapon get tased, I don't see reason to defend him.

[triad]

I must say, emotion is the big driver in this debate. This is where the law is too wishy-washy for me. I mean, the cops did have a legitimate reason to use the taser - they arrived at a scene with a big angry foreign guy that they could not communicate with. But then again, the big angry foreign guy was just extremely angry and frustrated. So of course there were other possible ways for them to deal with this, but they are trained to make the situation safe as immediate as possible. Tasering him they thought would give them a chance to arrest him, then sit him down and try to communicate with him.


In no way do I think that tasering was the best choice, but unlike Meyers in Florida, this guy had threatening attributes layered in his actions. He was literally throwing things around the airport, and picked up a stapler in a threatening way... it might only be a stapler, but having a stapler thrown at your face can cause damage...


In the end, it is a tragedy that he died, and I sympathize with his family. However, I dint know if this will create a need for law enforcement to change their taser regulations, it is supposed to be their last resort prior to shooting him. I am sure if he was shot over this it would have been a much greater problem.

[ruksak]

Quote by: triad they arrived at a scene with a big angry foreign guy that they could not communicate with. But then again, the big angry foreign guy was just extremely angry and frustrated.

..and holding a metal stick up in the air in an offensive and threatening manner. Why is no one mentioning this? Technically, he was an armed combatant.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak Here's something else for you to chew on Prax my boy. We can get rid of the taser altogether. But that will do NOTHING to lower instances of suspects violently and physically confronting the cops. The cops will have to use other less safe means of confrontation. Many times they will have to draw their guns and fire. Fact: A cop can disarm and dissolve a knife wielding crackhead with a taser and not get hurt. Fact: Take the taser away and the cop will use his gun 100% of the time in this instance.

Ah ba ba ba... you're jumping the gun again.... I never said they should be banned.... I said that can be an option if that is what they find. But I said, which you seem to agree apon, is that new proceedures are required and the tasers use limited, which is what I suggested at this time.

As a clarification from my first post in this, my personal opinion is that I don't like them and I think they should be banned..... OR limited in their use.

You're thinking I was implying they should be banned all together? Once again, remember I'm not a black/white kinda guy. However there is still peper spray which works just as well as a taser..... but then you have some who have alergic reactions and die... so it's always a loose loose situation.

The point is, if they are banned, good... officers never needed them before, they don't need them now. There are other non-leathal options as well. However, my opinion does not mean the case. What will most likely happen here is that in Canada they will pass a new system to follow with them, and they will not be banned right away. They will most likely be restricted.

But also in your response, if your officer will pull his gun 100% of the time.... sure, go ahead.... buddy is threatening your life... shoot him in the eye. But I'm not talking about situations in regards to violent people.... but relatively calm situations, or situations that can be easily talked down, like this one could have been.

And frig, even if they couldn't talk to one another due to a language barrier, they could have made hand signals or they could have drew out some friggin picutres..... and pictures are universal, even if you can't read.... if you can make basic pictures, you can talk to anybody.