Eight killed in Finland school shooting: official

[Praxius]

This is a screen captured image taken from YouTube of a teenage gunman, which features in a video posted by a man going by the username of Sturmgeist89, who is believed to be responsible for the shooting deaths in Finland.

CTV.ca | Eight killed in Finland school shooting: official

An 18-year-old opened fire at a high school in southern Finland Wednesday, killing eight people before wounding himself. "Five boys, two girls and one adult woman were killed," Police Chief Matti Tohkanen told a news conference. Tohkanen later identified the woman as the principal of the school, reports Reuters. The gunman, a student, shot himself and is being treated in hospital, The Associated Press reported. The school is located in Tuusula, about 50 kilometres north of Helsinki. Medical response leader Eero Hirvensalo told AP that one person was "severely injured" and another 10 people had minor injuries. Finnish media is also reporting that the gunman revealed his plans in a YouTube posting. The video, titled "Jokela High School Massacre,'' showed a picture of a building by a lake and two photos of a young man holding a handgun. The person who posted the video, which has now been removed, was identified as an 18-year-old man from Finland. A teacher at the school said an announcement was made shortly before lunch instructing students to remain in their classrooms. "I stayed in the corridor to listen to more instructions, having locked my classroom door,'' Kim Kiuru told the YLE radio station. "After that I saw the gunman running with what appeared to be a small calibre handgun in his hand through the doors toward me after which I escaped to the corridor downstairs and ran in the opposite direction.'' Kiuru said he saw a woman's body as he escaped. The shooting is the first reported incident of its kind at a Finnish school.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gee, and Finland has all kinds of gun laws to prevent these things.....

Gun politics in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AS usual, I am sorry to hear of another school shooting, but as usual, I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready AS usual, I am sorry to hear of another school shooting, but as usual, I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything.

And also the first to ignore the fact that this is Finland's first school shooting, while the U.S. has had at least 29 in the last 8 years alone.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Gee, and Finland has all kinds of gun laws to prevent these things..... .....AS usual, I am sorry to hear of another school shooting, but as usual, I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything.

How come those against gun control laws always expect gun control laws to be 100% perfect? One case occurs and you guys are ready to throw the whole plan out..... instead, how about you compare the overall number of gun related deaths/crimes in Finland over the last 10 years compared to the US's record of gun related deaths/crimes and tell me you don't see a difference in numbers.

And then this is where I expect to get the response "Oh but we have a higher population, so it's of course gonna be higher." :rolleyes:

The US gun death rates are far higher than other industrialized countries, and among the highest recorded in the world. 2005 statistics indicate that the US had 10,100 gun homicides compared to 222 in Canada. While Canada and the US have comparable rates of homicides without guns (1.79 vs. 1.35 per 100 000), the US firearm homicide rate is 5 times Canada's (3.8 vs. 0.69 per 100 000) and the US handgun homicide rate is 7 times Canada's (2.83 vs. 0.39 per 100 000). The US also has 5.8 times the rates per 100,000 of robberies committed with firearms even though rates of robberies without guns are comparable. While some American states have regulations comparable to other industrialized countries, guns flow freely across state borders. The USA's 220 millions guns account for almost 1/3 of all the guns in the world. American guns don’t just kill Americans - they fuel the illegal gun trade and gun violence world-wide. At least half of the illegal handguns recovered in Canada and 80% of crime guns in Mexico originate from the US. We have seen clear benefits from stronger gun control in Canada - the rate of firearm deaths is the lowest in 30 years, homicides with rifles and shotguns and the rate of women murdered with guns have plummeted. Certainly Canada's gun law is not perfect but we should address the gaps in the system, not dismantle it. That is why police organizations - the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Professional Police Association - along with every major public health, safety and domestic violence organization in Canada support the licensing of all gun owners and the registration of all guns.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/English/Hom...demicRev07.pdf

And there's all kinds of goodies in that PDF, like charts, statistics and pretty pictures of graphs and stuff for those who are anal about that stuff.

But this report isn't completely directed at the US, nor is the US the worst country in the list for gun related crimes, as it seems Columbia has the records for that.

[Osborn F Enready]

I was simply pointing out the OBVIOUS fact that anti-gunners never seem to understand.

Laws don't stop crime, and laws like these anti-gun laws only help to grow the black market of guns, as more and more normally lawful people attain guns by the ONLY means they can, which does what?!? Make it harder to track gun owners.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I was simply pointing out the OBVIOUS fact that anti-gunners never seem to understand. Laws don't stop crime, and laws like these anti-gun laws only help to grow the black market of guns, as more and more normally lawful people attain guns by the ONLY means they can, which does what?!? Make it harder to track gun owners.

I never said anything about the laws stopping crime... but they do reduce them.

And normally lawful people obtaining guns from the black market are not that normally lawful now are they, as they are now contributing to the issue, not solving it.

There's a difference between laws resricting normally lawful citizens from using drugs, and laws restricting normally lawful citizens from firearms.... one is overall abuse of oneself, which they have the right to do.... the other is obtaining a weapon in which is meant to kill or cause severe injury to others.

If you want to buy a gun to shoot yourself in the head, that's your choice... but to obtain a gun solely for the excuse to protect yourself, or to go out and interfeer in someone else's normal life, then I see an issue.

[Osborn F Enready]

Prax said: I never said anything about the laws stopping crime... but they do reduce them.

Logical fallacy. The amount of respect people pay to law is directly proportionate to the amount of respect people have IN the law, the government, and its goal and meaning of the word JUSTICE.

The more egregious the government in infringing basic individual liberties, the less respect people have for the laws and the law makers.

Prax said: And normally lawful people obtaining guns from the black market are not that normally lawful now are they, as they are now contributing to the issue, not solving it.

They see the government stepping in the way of their rights, as an infringement, which it is.

Prax said: There's a difference between laws resricting normally lawful citizens from using drugs, and laws restricting normally lawful citizens from firearms....

I totally disagree, and that is a logical fallacy.

Prax said: one is overall abuse of oneself, which they have the right to do.... the other is obtaining a weapon in which is meant to kill or cause severe injury to others.

Again, BS. I have several guns, and none have hurt anyone. Most guns never hurt anyone, and none of them can hurt anyone without improper handling, or a manufacturing flaw, or, being used as intended, DEFENSE.

All people have a right to competent defense, and in this day and age, not having a gun for defense, is incompetent. Placing trust in others to help you when only you are present and of mind and ability to protect yourself, is just plain fantasy.

Once again, if an armed teacher had been present, this may not have been so violent, with so much loss of INNOCENT life.

Are they suing the police?

Prax said: If you want to buy a gun to shoot yourself in the head, that's your choice...

That is not what you said above....

Prax said: but to obtain a gun solely for the excuse to protect yourself, or to go out and interfeer in someone else's normal life, then I see an issue

You have the right to see an issue, and the right to not buy a gun. You don't have the right to prevent others from buying guns for defense, and everyone who disagrees with you, will do what they have to to obtain guns if they feel they need them, "your issues" and "law" not withstanding.

[Osborn F Enready]

Zee said: And also the first to ignore the fact that this is Finland's first school shooting, while the U.S. has had at least 29 in the last 8 years alone.

Point?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Point?

You made the point:

"Finland has all kinds of gun laws to prevent these things"

"I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything."

I think you're wrong. 1 incident vs many. I think it's evident that easy availability of guns contributes to a higher death rate by guns.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Zeebadee I think you're wrong. 1 incident vs many. I think it's evident that easy availability of guns contributes to a higher death rate by guns.

However,... if the guns suddenly disappeared, would less people be victimized?


I suspect not.


The statistics would probably just show that more people were being stabbed, or pushed out of windows.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Milton Bradley However,... if the guns suddenly disappeared, would less people be victimized? I suspect not. The statistics would probably just show that more people were being stabbed, or pushed out of windows.

Really? Does Finland have more knife and window crimes because of gun restrictions?

Osborn, this was Finland's first school shooting in its entire history. That is hardly evidence of gun law failure.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: The Decider Really? Does Finland have more knife and window crimes because of gun restrictions?.

Hmmm, I don't know, but then I said I "suspected" as much.


Unfortunately, it's a little hard to compare other cultures on this level because most other countries have a far more homogenous populace. ( Thus less conflict between the cultures. )

[Osborn F Enready]

Zee said: "Finland has all kinds of gun laws to prevent these things"

Yes, I said that parroting the supposed "logic" behind gun laws, that the anti-gunners claim exist.

Zee said: "I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything."

Yes, I said that, which is my point.

Zee said: I think you're wrong. 1 incident vs many. I think it's evident that easy availability of guns contributes to a higher death rate by guns.

I am anxious to learn more. Curious about where the gun was obtained.

My point is that it is number one, in a place where there are many more gun control laws on the books. Is it due to a growing feeling of injustice in society that surrounds them, and what is "supposed" to be justice?

[Osborn F Enready]

Decider said: Osborn, this was Finland's first school shooting in its entire history.

And all the gun laws didn't stop it.

Decider said: That is hardly evidence of gun law failure.

Really?

Did you read the laws on owning a gun in Finland?

[another day]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready And all the gun laws didn't stop it. Really? Did you read the laws on owning a gun in Finland?

It didn't stop one instance. The point is, there is far less gun crime there. No laws can stop crime 100%. But the pertinent debate is whether it's due to the gun laws, or what I really suspect is the truth, that the US just has more guns, and more of a gun culture.

As for the argument that people would just stab instead of usings guns it's possible, but you won't get far with a stabbing spree, and it takes alot more guts to stab someone to death then shoot them.

[Osborn F Enready]

Innocent victims die from well placed stab wounds, just like well placed gunshots.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Gee, and Finland has all kinds of gun laws to prevent these things..... Gun politics in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia AS usual, I am sorry to hear of another school shooting, but as usual, I am first to point out the uselessness of "gun control laws" to change anything.

But you aren't the first to use availability heuristic and appeal to emotion to try and further an agenda.

United States per capita murder with a firearm is 0.0279271 per 1,000 people, while Finland's total per capita murder using any means is 0.0283362 per 1,000 people. U.S. total per capita murder, in comparison, is 0.042802 per 1,000 people, meaning half of the people murdered in the U.S. are murdered with firearms.

While I am against most forms of gun control in the U.S. (and even the NRA is for some forms of gun control, which is why I am a member), I am also against exploiting tragedy to further an agenda. Murder by firearm, or by any means actually, is hardly an epidemic in Finland, but nice try anyway.

source for stats: NationMaster - Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country

[Osborn F Enready]

Shawmutt said: But you aren't the first to use availability heuristic and appeal to emotion to try and further an agenda.

The first to use?!?

If you look over my posting history on gun topics, you will see this is an extreme approach by me, as you say, to use the same techniques typically directed from the anti-gunners, back toward them.

Shamutt said: Murder by firearm, or by any means actually, is hardly an epidemic in Finland, but nice try anyway.

I wasn't pointing to it being an epidemic, I was pointing out how much a fallacy it is to say more gun laws are an answer.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: shawmutt But you aren't the first to use availability heuristic and appeal to emotion to try and further an agenda.

The people pushing the agenda are the ones that attempt to blame the inanimate object for the crimes of people.


There are plenty of gun debate threads here, but these tragic death threads are always the ones that evolve into gun debates. Wonder why?

Quote by: shawmutt While I am against most forms of gun control in the U.S. (and even the NRA is for some forms of gun control, which is why I am a member), I am also against exploiting tragedy to further an agenda. Murder by firearm, or by any means actually, is hardly an epidemic in Finland, but nice try anyway.

So, which side of this were you on again?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready And all the gun laws didn't stop it.

Is that what you think gun law supporters believe--gun laws stop 100% of gun crimes? You can't be serious, Osborn. If you are, you are sadly misinformed. If you aren't, I don't get the joke.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Really? Did you read the laws on owning a gun in Finland?

No, I haven't had the pleasure. Feel free to educate me on Finnish gun laws.