Eight killed in Finland school shooting: official

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Praxius This is a screen captured image taken from YouTube of a teenage gunman, which features in a video posted by a man going by the username of Sturmgeist89, who is believed to be responsible for the shooting deaths in Finland. CTV.ca | Eight killed in Finland school shooting: official

They have guns in Finland?

[Osborn F Enready]

The Decider said: Is that what you think gun law supporters believe--gun laws stop 100% of gun crimes? You can't be serious, Osborn. If you are, you are sadly misinformed. If you aren't, I don't get the joke.

Did I say all? I said anti-gunners, which is the extreme anti-gun crowd.
The usual answer when something like this happens is "OMG, let's hurry and pass some new gun laws to prevent these types of things", when new laws won't make an effect one way or another.

The Decider said: No, I haven't had the pleasure. Feel free to educate me on Finnish gun laws.

Feel free to scroll backwards up the page, and actually look at the LINK I put in my post, the first post in this thread from me. (post #2)

[Praxius]

Quote by: Milton Bradley However,... if the guns suddenly disappeared, would less people be victimized? I suspect not. The statistics would probably just show that more people were being stabbed, or pushed out of windows.

Still a better chance at survival then several bullets lodged into your chest and/or skull. As the stats I showed, violent crimes without firearms are almost the same in the US and Canada, but gun related crimes are 5x more in the US then that of Canada.

And saying that these countries with gun control were already peaceful countries before the laws were in place, therefore not valid for a good example.... I say these kinds of laws are what have prolonged this level of peace. No society is perfect, and there will always be pissy people everywhere who will attempt to do what they need to do in some fasion or another..... but reducing the availability not only reduces the chances of them getting a firearm, but if they get it off the black market, then that proves further intent/motive, certain times may open up a large operation where they trace the firearm back, and result in further charges to other who contribute to the problem. Works for me.

[ruksak]

How come no one ever talks about knife control after a stabbing?

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak How come no one ever talks about knife control after a stabbing?

Because that would be even harder to regulate, as there are much more uses for knives in our everyday lives then there are for firearms..... too many excuses and reasons can be used, as well most considder a knife as the last form of defense before you run out of options besides your fists, lol.

[Praxius]

Update:



CTV.ca | Finnish school gunman was bullied social outcast

TUUSULA, Finland -- The Finnish teenager who killed eight people in a high school shooting was a bullied social outcast but appears to have picked his victims randomly, a senior police official said Thursday. Police spokesman Goran Wennqvist told reporters the gunman, identified as 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen, left a suicide note, "saying goodbye to his family and a message ... indicating his will against society." Investigators believe Auvinen revealed plans for the attack in postings on YouTube in which he urges revolution, and grins after target practice One posting called for a popular uprising against "the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes" and appeared to anticipate a violent attack. "I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection," the posting said. Police said Auvinen killed eight people before turning the gun on himself Wednesday at Jokela High School in Tuusula, some 30 miles north of the capital, Helsinki. Police initially said the victims were seven students and the principal, but Detective Superintendent Tero Haapala said Thursday that the school nurse was among those killed. "You can say that the motive is still open," Haapala told The Associated Press. "But the explanation can be found mainly in his Web writings and his social behavior." He said Auvinen appeared to have selected his victims at random. "There's nothing that links him with the victims except that they attended the same school," Haapala said. Auvinen shot the victims with a .22-caliber pistol, police said, adding that about a dozen other people were injured as they tried to escape from the school. The gunman then shot himself in the head, and died hours later at a hospital. Witnesses described a scene of mayhem in the leafy lakeside community, in which the assailant scoured the school for victims while shouting "Revolution!" On Thursday, grieving students placed candles outside the school, which was still encircled by police tape as forensic experts sought to reconstruct the shooting spree. Thursday was declared a day of mourning in Finland and memorial services were planned across the country. In Tuusula, a town of 34,000 people, a church was turned into a crisis center with experts on hand to comfort grieving residents. Flags were flying at half staff across the nation. Gun ownership is fairly common in Finland by European standards, but deadly shootings are rare. Finnish media reported that a school shooting in 1989 involved a 14-year-old boy who killed two other students apparently for teasing him. Police chief Matti Tohkanen said Auvinen belonged to a gun club and got a license for the pistol on Oct. 19. He did not have a previous criminal record and "was from an ordinary family," Tohkanen said. Students said the shooter often wore the same clothes to school -- brown leather jacket, black trousers and checkered shirt -- and usually carried a briefcase. Tuomas Hulkkonen, another student, said he knew the gunman well, adding that the teen had been acting strange lately. "He withdrew into his shell. I had noticed a change in him just recently, and I thought that perhaps he was a bit depressed, or something, but I couldn't imagine that in reality he would do anything like this," Hulkkonen told Finnish TV broadcaster MTV3. More than 400 students aged 12-18 were enrolled at the school, officials said.

Ok sure, I have been shooting off about a US revolution and all.... but I've got no interest or the slack of intelligence to go ape crap with a gun.... sheish.

Some people just need a hug.

[Chaossaber314]

Or to get laid. I'm totally serious.

I'm really curious as to how many of these school shooters internationally were virgins. Not that virginity causes school shootings, but all of these seem to deal with some social outcast and usually they seem to deal with a girl (though perhaps not in this case).

[Praxius]

I've only noticed one that had any relation to a girl in it.... which I think was that last shooting in the US, where I think a line of communication was going on between the shooter and some of his potiential targets..... it's been a while so i'm rusty on the details.

But most of these were just generic hatred towards the society which they feel put them into the position in life they were in.

I can understand some of the limited logic behind these shootings, as I went down that road as an outcast in school as well.... the thoughts of venting some of my rage, regardless of the consequences, onto some of those in my school did cross my mind at one time or another.... then again I also just thought of plain suicide to be done with it.

I never did, because I still had some reasoning and understanding that I should tough it out and try and make the rest of my life better after school..... and I did.

Shooting kids randomly in the school is an act apon the school entirely as he mostly likely considdered everybody equally guilty in support of this society in which he hated and he blamed for his position in life. Even those you know have never done anything to you, sometimes it can cross the mind to just make them suffer just as equally, to make it indiscriminate..... and other times, one could just think of taking out those responsible and leaving it at that.

When you see no possible good end to your future and there is no solutions for you, it's sometimes easy for some people to just say screw it all and take everybody with them to get a message across.

I'm not justifying anything this guy or any others in these cases.... but there are reasons behind their actions.... although greatly flawed. It's what happens when you reach your limit and there is nowhere else to go. When you feel there is not even one person out there who understands you or is willing to help you through it, your compassion can easily be thrown out the window.

[Osborn F Enready]

I want to know HOW and WHERE he got the gun.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I want to know HOW and WHERE he got the gun.

Agreed.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Praxius Works for me.

Yeah, but then you don't have a right to protect because Canada already lost the right to bare arms.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Yeah, but then you don't have a right to protect because Canada already lost the right to bare arms.

Do you mean that they have hairy arms, or that they have to keep their arms covered?

[Osborn F Enready]

Zee said: Do you mean that they have hairy arms, or that they have to keep their arms covered?

His point was quite clear, though his spelling a bit off.

Point?

[Praxius]

Everybody has the right to defend themselves and those they care about.... and a right to bare arms is Arms.... Not Firearms.

Right to bear arms The right to bear arms refers to the right that individuals have to weapons. This right is often presented in the context of military service and the broader right of self defense. ......As an example, the expression 'bear arms' is contained in the United States Declaration of Independence in the sense of 'military service' on a warship, as part of an indictment of the King of Great Britain for conscripting Colonial sailors to serve on British warships. "He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands." Uviler and Merkle also hold that the right to bear arms is not reserved exclusively for the state, but rather is an individual and personal right for arms so long as that right is essential to maintain a well regulated Militia.....

Right to bear arms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I honestly don't see anything protecting the right to own Firearms.... just weapons in general, and unless you have a desire to join up with the militia/reserves, there is no logic in allowing common citizens to own firearms.

And then you have people try and defend this right to firearms as to protect their families and homes from invaders/attackers.... yet as was quoted:

"He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands."

To me this seems like the original intentions were to arm yourselves against forign invaders... not to use them against your "Brethren."

[Osborn F Enready]

ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic Prax.

And we have an individual right to keep and bear arms, without relevance to the word militia.

The Fed claims that the National Guard was the states militias, but we see how untrue that is since the National Guard is being used as a regular uniformed troop in the battle in Iraq, working for the Fed, not the State, while the State rests largely unprotected.

[another day]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I want to know HOW and WHERE he got the gun.

His family were gun club members. He got it from his house.

Parents need to do a better job of keeping their firearms out of the hands of their messed up teenagers.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: another day Parents need to do a better job of keeping their firearms out of the hands of their messed up teenagers.

Again, that really appears to be the crux of the issue.


It's critical to focus the blame where it belongs.

[Osborn F Enready]

Milton said: It's critical to focus the blame where it belongs.

Thanks for pointing that out, as that is my entire point of my arguments in this thread. More laws aren't needed, more responsible people are.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic Prax.

That still means military, not individual.... ie: an uprising of english loyalist from the nation, or an upevil like the Bush asministation.

And yeah I wonder wtf the National Guard were doing out of the "National" area lol.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Thanks for pointing that out, as that is my entire point of my arguments in this thread. More laws aren't needed, more responsible people are.

If the dumb parents taught their kid better or put the firearms in a location where he could not get them, or there were no guns available period, then this may not have occured, as the weapon would not have been as accessable for him.... who knows?