Link to First Temple found

[GHook93]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...%2FJPArticle%2

Archeologists overseeing contested Islamic infrastructure work on Jerusalem's Temple Mount have stumbled upon a sealed archeological level dating back to the First Temple period, the Israel Antiquities Authority announced Sunday. The find marks the first time that archeological remains dating back to the First Temple period have been found on the contested holy site, the state-run archeological body said. No archeological excavations have ever been carried out on the Temple Mount, which is Judaism's holiest and Islam's third-holiest site, due to opposition from religious leaders. The sealed archeological level, dated from the eighth to the sixth centuries BCE, was exposed at the end of August in the area close to the southeastern corner of the raised platform surrounding the Dome of the Rock, and includes fragments of ceramic tableware and animal bone. "The layer is a closed, sealed archeological layer that has been untouched since as early as the eighth century BCE," said Yuval Baruch, the Jerusalem District archeologist for the Israel Antiquities Authority. But independent Israeli archeologists from the nonpartisan Committee Against the Destruction of Antiquities on the Temple Mount, who have repeatedly lambasted the Antiquities Authority for allowing Islamic officials to carry out the infrastructure work this summer, downplayed the findings.

Food for thought for the volconvo anti-semites. Its there are artifacts and other proof that the Jewish Israelites were in Israel well before the Arab Muslim Crusades of the the 6th century!

[notworthabean]

very nice!

[Gaius]

Quote by: GHook93 http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...%2FJPArticle%2 Food for thought for the volconvo anti-semites. Its there are artifacts and other proof that the Jewish Israelites were in Israel well before the Arab Muslim Crusades of the the 6th century!

Breaking News

Mayan and Native American ruins found in north and south america. The New Mayo-Native American defense forces claim the areas around the ruins as per the UN plan that the american whites have rejected. American whites told to leave these lands to make way for the people returning to their homeland after hundreds of years! millions displaced, millions more under the new mayan and native american occupation !

American whites that didnt fight but fled during the us governments attempt to stop the land theft are not refugees as per international laws, but instead according to the Mayo-Native american defense forces are actually somehow complicit in the attempted stoppage of the land theft. Therefore they can never return to their land of birth!


GG pwnt lulz
i destroyed israels entire attempt at existance. why would the US government buy the BS of mayan/native americans to try to pull this stunt off? THEY DONT.
so why would arabs allow people from russia and the new york to try to same? the answer, THEY DONT

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Gaius i destroyed israels entire attempt at existance. why would the US government buy the BS of mayan/native americans to try to pull this stunt off? THEY DONT. so why would arabs allow people from russia and the new york to try to same? the answer, THEY DONT

Let's call it the realities of history, Gaius. That's sorta what 'Manifest Destiny' was, a force of U.S. history that - right or wrong - was too powerful to be stopped. A flood of immigrants from Europe pouring into the new world.

Such is the story of the Mideast. Palestine didn't belong to the Palestinians... they TOOK IT during the Moslem conquests. The Christian Crusaders tried to take it back, but the forces of history and Saladin were against them.

Then came the Ottomans, who rendered Palestine into a tax farm backwater until the end of WWI. Thus began the entire, glorious 30 year existance of the sovereign nation of Palestine, until the next giant wave of history washed over them... WWII and, specifically, the Holocaust.

The events of WWII drove Europes Jews back to claim their ancestral home, so they'd never again fall prey to the whims of anti-semetic adopted homes. And the nations of the world, in the form of the UN, recognized this exodus as a fair and just response to the events of history, and granted the Jews their homeland, along with the Palestinians, who still had a state, albeit partitioned.

But the Arabs refused to accept this force of history and made a war of annihilation on the new Jewish state. And lost. And made war again. And lost again. And made war again. And lost again. And every time they lost, Israel grew a little larger and an little stronger. Apparently God was making his will obvious.

Yet still the Arabs refused to concede the reality of history, and with each loss they continued herding the ever increasing Palestinian refugees into hideous concentration camps -- refuge camps -- in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in order to grow the hatred and fodder for their never ending war against Israel. It's from such camps that terrorists like Yasser Arafat arose.

Well, it's goddam friggin' time for the Moslem and Arab worlds to recognize the realities of history. Just as the native American tribes have accepted reality and are finally getting some justice back by peacefully using the system... gaming, development, etc., it's time the Palestinians accepted that Israel is not going anywhere. It's here and it's the 800 lb. Gorilla, so quit friggin' poking it with sticks thinking it's going to get up and go away.

I'm always sadly bemused when I listen to Moslem talk about "God's will" regarding their wars against Israel and the movement towards Islamic law. Look around you. God's will is screwing the enemies of Israel up the anus. The Palestinians, are watching their lives get more and more miserable the more they fight peace with Israel. Muslims kill vastly more Muslims than the Americans and Israelis put together. Afghanistan, the center of the most devout Islamists on earth, the Taliban, is the closest place around to hell on earth. Moslem mideast nations are universally brutal, repressive autocracies that murder and torture their own citizens, fostering resistance movements that want nothing better than to take over their governments to install Islamic Republics that would be even MORE repressive, and murder and torture even MORE of their own citizens.

So just stop it, already. Palestinians should lay down their arms and take up the examples of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Corey Aquino... that is, massed, peaceful, non-violent resistance. I guarantee that world opinion would almost immediately swing to sympathy for their plight, and force the Israelis into concessions. But as long as they continue their brutal, tribalistic, murderous ways, Israel will always be able to claim they're fighting for their existance.

.

[Nono]

How tiresome. I'm basically with Sonart, except for his over-comprehensive rant at the very end.

Most Palestininans, like most Israelis, no doubt just want to get on with their lives and to be f**ked with as little as possible by all concered.

Sonart tars the entire Palestinininan population with a brush that rightfully applies to a lunatic fringe. Unfortunately, the loonies on both sides repeatedly jerk each other off, while we sit back and say "What can you do, the Arabs this, the Israelis that."

"Ethnic cleansing" is the major theme in human history. So what's new? The Zionists did it to the Arabs (the UN plan notwithstanding) just as everyone has always done it to whomever they could get away with doing it to. And in the last decade and a half the Israelis have been doing it bigtime on the West Bank.

But it's still wrong, y'know. Israel was supposed to be about more than cavemanism, remember?

And anyone who participates in a my-ancestors-were-here-before-your-ancestors contest is an asshole.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Sonart . Let's call it the realities of history, Gaius. That's sorta what 'Manifest Destiny' was, a force of U.S. history that - right or wrong - was too powerful to be stopped. A flood of immigrants from Europe pouring into the new world. Such is the story of the Mideast. Palestine didn't belong to the Palestinians... they TOOK IT during the Moslem conquests. The Christian Crusaders tried to take it back, but the forces of history and Saladin were against them. Then came the Ottomans, who rendered Palestine into a tax farm backwater until the end of WWI. Thus began the entire, glorious 30 year existance of the sovereign nation of Palestine, until the next giant wave of history washed over them... WWII and, specifically, the Holocaust. The events of WWII drove Europes Jews back to claim their ancestral home, so they'd never again fall prey to the whims of anti-semetic adopted homes. And the nations of the world, in the form of the UN, recognized this exodus as a fair and just response to the events of history, and granted the Jews their homeland, along with the Palestinians, who still had a state, albeit partitioned. But the Arabs refused to accept this force of history and made a war of annihilation on the new Jewish state. And lost. And made war again. And lost again. And made war again. And lost again. And every time they lost, Israel grew a little larger and an little stronger. Apparently God was making his will obvious. Yet still the Arabs refused to concede the reality of history, and with each loss they continued herding the ever increasing Palestinian refugees into hideous concentration camps -- refuge camps -- in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in order to grow the hatred and fodder for their never ending war against Israel. It's from such camps that terrorists like Yasser Arafat arose. Well, it's goddam friggin' time for the Moslem and Arab worlds to recognize the realities of history. Just as the native American tribes have accepted reality and are finally getting some justice back by peacefully using the system... gaming, development, etc., it's time the Palestinians accepted that Israel is not going anywhere. It's here and it's the 800 lb. Gorilla, so quit friggin' poking it with sticks thinking it's going to get up and go away. I'm always sadly bemused when I listen to Moslem talk about "God's will" regarding their wars against Israel and the movement towards Islamic law. Look around you. God's will is screwing the enemies of Israel up the anus. The Palestinians, are watching their lives get more and more miserable the more they fight peace with Israel. Muslims kill vastly more Muslims than the Americans and Israelis put together. Afghanistan, the center of the most devout Islamists on earth, the Taliban, is the closest place around to hell on earth. Moslem mideast nations are universally brutal, repressive autocracies that murder and torture their own citizens, fostering resistance movements that want nothing better than to take over their governments to install Islamic Republics that would be even MORE repressive, and murder and torture even MORE of their own citizens. So just stop it, already. Palestinians should lay down their arms and take up the examples of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Corey Aquino... that is, massed, peaceful, non-violent resistance. I guarantee that world opinion would almost immediately swing to sympathy for their plight, and force the Israelis into concessions. But as long as they continue their brutal, tribalistic, murderous ways, Israel will always be able to claim they're fighting for their existance. .

Good rant! The only problem was there has never been a Palestine. After the Ottoman Empire it became the British Mandates!

[Nono]

You, G, are the resident expert in rant.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono And anyone who participates in a my-ancestors-were-here-before-your-ancestors contest is an asshole.

Many claim that the Israelites/Jews were never existed! This relevence!

[shrike]

Quote by: nono "Ethnic cleansing" is the major theme in human history. So what's new? The Zionists did it to the Arabs (the UN plan notwithstanding) just as everyone has always done it to whomever they could get away with doing it to. And in the last decade and a half the Israelis have been doing it bigtime on the West Bank.

I don't agree with that there is ethnic cleansing. Yes there is a brutal conflict. Yes civilians die. Yes there is war on resources like water, land and etc. But I don't agree with you that there is some policy by Israel government to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. Compare it to real ethnic cleansings what goes now in West Bank is not even close.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Nono You, G, are the resident expert in rant.

I take the as a compliment. Thanks bud!

[Gaius]

Quote by: Sonart . Let's call it the realities of history, Gaius. That's sorta what 'Manifest Destiny' was, a force of U.S. history that - right or wrong - was too powerful to be stopped. A flood of immigrants from Europe pouring into the new world.

Did you just justify the genocide of native americans? i think you did. nice work

Such is the story of the Mideast. Palestine didn't belong to the Palestinians... they TOOK IT during the Moslem conquests. The Christian Crusaders tried to take it back, but the forces of history and Saladin were against them.

yup and they remained there for hundreds of years. the idea that might makes right has been discussed and has been relegated to the dustbin of history, much like your argument here.

Then came the Ottomans, who rendered Palestine into a tax farm backwater until the end of WWI. Thus began the entire, glorious 30 year existance of the sovereign nation of Palestine, until the next giant wave of history washed over them... WWII and, specifically, the Holocaust.

Irrelevant to palestine. holocaust happened in germany. whats it got to do with palesine?

The events of WWII drove Europes Jews back to claim their ancestral home, so they'd never again fall prey to the whims of anti-semetic adopted homes.

Wow suprising that MOST jews dont even live in israel and in fact see it as the opposite, one of the only places where jews are actually targetted and killed, so again your argument is made of the same flimsy material that israels reasons for existance is made out of

And the nations of the world, in the form of the UN, recognized this exodus as a fair and just response to the events of history, and granted the Jews their homeland, along with the Palestinians, who still had a state, albeit partitioned.

Palestinians rejected the deal, hence nullifying it

But the Arabs refused to accept this force of history and made a war of annihilation on the new Jewish state. And lost. And made war again. And lost again. And made war again. And lost again. And every time they lost, Israel grew a little larger and an little stronger. Apparently God was making his will obvious.

They could lose another million times, has no relevance, and no legitimacy to gain more land. International law makes it clear that no nation can gain land through force. None at all. not even after one million, count em, one million wars of annihilation.

Yet still the Arabs refused to concede the reality of history, and with each loss they continued herding the ever increasing Palestinian refugees into hideous concentration camps -- refuge camps -- in Gaza, in Lebanon, in Syria, in order to grow the hatred and fodder for their never ending war against Israel. It's from such camps that terrorists like Yasser Arafat arose.

Uh huh. agreed, a never ending war against israel. What can i say, injustice is injustice. The palestinians are as bad as the native americans, youll have to wipe them out to stop them from trying to get back whats theirs.

Well, it's goddam friggin' time for the Moslem and Arab worlds to recognize the realities of history. Just as the native American tribes have accepted reality and are finally getting some justice back by peacefully using the system... gaming, development, etc., it's time the Palestinians accepted that Israel is not going anywhere. It's here and it's the 800 lb. Gorilla, so quit friggin' poking it with sticks thinking it's going to get up and go away.

The native americans didnt recognize anything, they were nearly wiped out. The stick must have a spear at the end, israel left the sinai, gaza and southern lebanon. Looks like the gorilla is bleeding and the palestinians are getting better and better sticks.

I'm always sadly bemused when I listen to Moslem talk about "God's will" regarding their wars against Israel and the movement towards Islamic law. Look around you. God's will is screwing the enemies of Israel up the anus. The Palestinians, are watching their lives get more and more miserable the more they fight peace with Israel. Muslims kill vastly more Muslims than the Americans and Israelis put together. Afghanistan, the center of the most devout Islamists on earth, the Taliban, is the closest place around to hell on earth. Moslem mideast nations are universally brutal, repressive autocracies that murder and torture their own citizens, fostering resistance movements that want nothing better than to take over their governments to install Islamic Republics that would be even MORE repressive, and murder and torture even MORE of their own citizens.

Relevance? this is a red herring, maybe we should end all civil war, all occupations, and then maybe come back and try to solve the israel occupation?

So just stop it, already. Palestinians should lay down their arms and take up the examples of Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Corey Aquino... that is, massed, peaceful, non-violent resistance. I guarantee that world opinion would almost immediately swing to sympathy for their plight, and force the Israelis into concessions. But as long as they continue their brutal, tribalistic, murderous ways, Israel will always be able to claim they're fighting for their existance.

Funny how Ghandi was pro-palestinian and actually spoke against israel taking land and establishing itself under the "british gun". Also

Yawn, they were pro-palestinian. in fact ghandis grandson protested peacefully with palestinians, he met the same fate as these guys

KABOBfest: Where is the Israeli Gandhi?

but please, keep asking where the palestinian non-violence protesters are.

""Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: GHook93 Good rant!

Clever rebuttle. :rolleyes:

Quote by: GHook93 The only problem was there has never been a Palestine. After the Ottoman Empire it became the British Mandates!

Then what in Allah's name are the Palestinians complaining about? Why would anyone owe them a Palestinian state that's never existed, or deny one to the Jews that was given to them freely by it's previous rulers? What makes the native Palestinians anything more than long-time squaters on land run by a series of different landlords.

The Christians (Romans, who became Christian) took it from the Jews, the Arabs took it from the Christians, the Ottomans took it from the Arabs, the British took it from the Ottomans, and then the Jews took it back. Full circle, how poetic. Where does the Palestinian's claim fit in??

Quote by: Shrike But I don't agree with you that there is some policy by Israel government to ethnically cleanse the Arabs.

The methods used to create some of the Israeli settlements have come pretty dang close, Shrike, even if it didn't include mass murder.

.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Sonart . Clever rebuttle. :rolleyes: Then what in Allah's name are the Palestinians complaining about? Why would anyone owe them a Palestinian state that's never existed, or deny one to the Jews that was given to them freely by it's previous rulers? What makes the native Palestinians anything more than long-time squaters on land run by a series of different landlords. The Christians (Romans, who became Christian) took it from the Jews, the Arabs took it from the Christians, the Ottomans took it from the Arabs, the British took it from the Ottomans, and then the Jews took it back. Full circle, how poetic. Where does the Palestinian's claim fit in?? The methods used to create some of the Israeli settlements have come pretty dang close, Shrike, even if it didn't include mass murder. .

A little clarification is in order: Sonart, GHook is on your side of this as are shrike and notworthabean

Gaius and Nono are basically on the other side. Actually Nono is sorta ambivalent.

But Sonart, you are so full of it, your EYES are brown.

The vicious Zionists murdered their way into ascendancy in their neighborhood. Guess what? TERROR WORKS! That is why the Palestinians have turned to terror. IT EFFEN WORKS!

Sonart, for a smart guy, you don't do much research on how the Zionists have carried out their ethnic cleansing/murder campaign.

I suggest you read the documentation of Ilan Pappe, an ISRAELI historian.



One reviewers take on Pappe's book. Mine is similar.

In order to achieve peaceful coexistence in Palestine/Israel, it is imperative that both Palestinians and Israelis hear the true stories of the other and acknowledge their own wrongdoings. This book documents, using historical sources, the wrongdoings that were done to the Palestinians during the 1948 war (the Israeli war of independence and the war the Palestinians call the catastrophe). This book analyses historical evidence from Israeli sources, indepdently proving true the 1948 experiences the Palestinian refugees, men and women, rich and poor, muslim and christian recount about their cleansing from their land and property. These events of 1948 accounted here were censored by the perpetrators from even the Israeli population. These events were never added to school books and intentionally pushed out of the Israeli society's consciousness. However, these events and experiences are vivid in the Palestinian consciousness. Palestinians continue to live the consequences of their diaspora and forced migration in 1948 today. In order to achieve peace, it is crucial to understand the Palestinian experience and acknowledge it. These experiences are just as true and unquestionable to Palestinians as true and unquestionable the holocaust is to the Israelis. Now it is totally expected that the book would face resistence and bad reviews here by some Israelis who have never heard these stories and are unwanting to hear them (thanks to censorship). Similarly, zionist enthusiasts are likely to resist this book as they've always resisted any effort that would make heard the Palestinian history. But a mutual aknowledgement of history in its good and bad, accepting responsibility for crimes and correcting any wrongdoings are a must for both sides to achieve true peace with the other. This book is a must read for anyone (Israeli, Palestinian, Western or Eastern) that is truely interested in peace in the middle east and in a well-founded and well-informed understanding of the Palestinian situation.

[shrike]

Quote by: PH ? TERROR WORKS! That is why the Palestinians have turned to terror. IT EFFEN WORKS!

Palestinians didn't turn to terror is was their tactics from beginning of the conflict .It because of their violence Jewish defense groups were created

I suggest you read the documentation of Ilan Pappe, an ISRAELI historian

Why don't you also propose to read David Irving or some other IHR material that you posted here?

[Thanatos]

Right and wrong are irrelevant. I don't own a big chunk of Georgia because some of my ancestors are unsurrendered Cherokees who never formally gave up their land. Legally I probably do, but I'll let things slide for preservation of peace and order.

The Israelis and the Palestinians need to forget history and divide the land so nobody is living in a refugee camp. Fairness is key, not legality. Legality ends with one side owning everything, which forces the side that loses the legal battle to continue fighting because there's no place for them to go.

[Nono]

"A mutual aknowledgement of history in its good and bad, accepting responsibility for crimes and correcting any wrongdoings are a must for both sides to achieve true peace with the other."

Thanks for the quote, Pat. I too agree.

A wee dose of ambivalence on all sides would be welcome in this debate dominated by zealots like GHook and shrike (on one side) who fervently pick over the facts for morsels to back up their point of view.

True peace is therefore unlikely because it's simply too much fun to get oneself worked up into a towering rage of self-righteousness -- "We are Right, as always." Yep, it just presses all those pleasure buttons.

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: Gaius Did you just justify the genocide of native americans? i think you did. nice work

Did I? Well by golly, I'm sorry, we can't have that. We should give it all back, starting with you, if you're an American. I mean, after all, you wouldn't justify the genocide of native Americans by keeping land taken from them, would you?

Or are you simply playing cute games, knowing full well that I wrote "a force of U.S. history - right or wrong - that was too powerful..." I didn't justify anything, I just stated a fact... a fact that you are now probably quite comfortably living with the fruits of.

Quote by: Gaius Yup and they remained there for hundreds of years.

So?

Quote by: Gaius the idea that might makes right has been discussed and has been relegated to the dustbin of history, much like your argument here.

How about that. So imagine how new and exciting it was for Israel to be created by a peaceful, democratic consensus of the world's nations, without a shot being fired. Alas, it was the Arab League and the Palestinians who kept thinking they could use might to reverse history. The Israelis simply used might to defend themselves.

You don't have a problem with using might to defend yourself, do you?

Quote by: Gaius Irrelevant to palestine. holocaust happened in germany. whats it got to do with palesine?

Number one, it happened throughout Europe, in every nation that fell under Nazi rule. And number two, it's entirely relevent because it was an event of such monumental injustice that it compelled the Jew's to reclaim their ancient and only homeland, lest such an injustice befall them again. A tidal force of history, no less than the settling of the New World. Is Spanish truly the native language of Latin America? Or is it simply the accepted result of another such tidal wave?

Quote by: Gaius Wow suprising that MOST jews dont even live in israel and in fact see it as the opposite, one of the only places where jews are actually targetted and killed, so again your argument is made of the same flimsy material that israels reasons for existance is made out of

Except for the fact that enough Jews went there to make a nation. The vast majority of Arabs don't live there either. So what's their beef with Israel?

Quote by: Gaius Palestinians rejected the deal, hence nullifying it

Really? Think that would work for me??? I'll just reject the laws and financial claims regarding my property, thus nullifying them.

See, the problem is, the Arab League and their Palestinian pawns tried to nullify it through armed might, and lost... not once but 3 or 4 times (depending on how you define the various wars). So it seems to me that the only thing 'nullified' is any Arab claims to Israel.

Quote by: Gaius They could lose another million times, has no relevance, and no legitimacy to gain more land. International law makes it clear that no nation can gain land through force.

Well, ya see, Gaius, it gets sorta fuzzy there. Because international law was intended to prevent nations from attacking neighbors in order to take their land. Alas, it was the ARABS WHO ATTACKED ISRAEL IN ORDER TO TAKE THEIR LAND! They just happened to lose a little more land every time Israel successfully defended itself.

And it's not like Israel initially intended to keep it. After all, when Egypt made a formal peace, Israel gave them back the entire Sinai Peninsula. That strikes me as a pretty clear object lesson. Keep making war against Israel, lose more land. Make peace with Israel, and you get land back. The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank tomorrow, if only Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. would formally put down their arms and declare a formal peace.

Quote by: Gaius The palestinians are as bad as the native americans, youll have to wipe them out to stop them from trying to get back whats theirs.

Oh please... there's been about 4,000 Palestinians killed in the past 10 years, half of them armed militants. I'd hardly call that a genocide.

In the chicken & egg cycles of violence, it's always the Arabs who manage to start things off. Don't even try denying it.

Quote by: Gaius The stick must have a spear at the end, israel left the sinai, gaza

Get your facts straight. Israel peacefully returned Gaza and the Sinai after Anwar Sadat signed a formal peace treaty.

Indeed, the incursion into lebanon, the Israeli's only aggressive adventure, was a losing proposition, but yet again, it was a direct result of being constantly attacked by the Arab proxies, their Palestinan Refugee Camp bred fodder who became the PLO.

Quote by: Gaius Relevance?

The relevance is that since the creation of Israel, making constant war against them has brought nothing but misery and humiliation to the Palestinians and their Arab puppeteers.

Perhaps Allah is trying to tell them that it's time to try something else.

Quote by: Gaius Funny how Ghandi was pro-palestinian and actually spoke against israel taking land and establishing itself under the "british gun". Also

So what? The point is that Gandhi's peaceful methods worked in India, while the Palestinian's constant violence has failed miserably in Israel. I was refering to Gandhi's methods, not his sympathies...

...and since Gandhi died in 1948, the same year Israel became as state, what makes you think Gandhi would have approved of the constant wars and violence used against them?

Quote by: Gaius Yawn, they were pro-palestinian. in fact ghandis grandson protested peacefully with palestinians, he met the same fate as these guys

The file you linked has been deleted. If it's the one I've already seen, it's Palestinians being dispersed by police, with one getting whacked in the head with a rubber bullet, one who, on close inspection by the video camera, is in unhappy pain, but very much alive.

The point you seem to be missing is that Gandhi kept up a continuous campaign of non-violent resistance, despite CONSTANTLY being attacked and thrown in jail. The same applied in South Africa. It was the willingness of Gandhi and his followers to constantly stand up to repressive and violent authority, WITHOUT resorting to violence, that eventually earned political sympathy abroad, not the least including the Britains themselves.

Israel has a sizable part of its population that's sympathetic to Palestinian goals of self-determination. But until the majority of Israelis feel safe from constant violent attack, they're going to do what they think it takes to defend themselves.

Quote by: Gaius I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. -- Gandhi

Like I said...

Quote by: Gaius "But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." -- Gandhi

What overwhelming odds? To begin with, as GHook pointed out, there was no Palestine prior to 1948. And if ANYONE has put up a valient resistance against overwhelming odds, it's been the Israelis.

.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Sonart . Clever rebuttle. :rolleyes: .

sorry poor choice of words. Good post is what I meant!

[Sonart]

.

Quote by: PatrickHenry A little clarification is in order: Sonart, GHook is on your side of this as are shrike and notworthabean

Unlike Shrike, I'm not a complete apologist for Israel. Israel is guilty of a great deal, and I despise the likes of Sharon and Netanyahu. I've often said that if you kick a dog long enough, it turns vicious. That doesn't mean that I like the vicious dog that Israel has become.

But that doesn't change the fact that over the long haul, the Arabs brought it upon themselves, and upon their poor Palestinian pawns. Therefore, I think it's up to the Palestinians to renounce the violence. I'm pretty positive that Israel, should they feel comfortable that there really was an end to the violence, would be more than happy to dump their right-wing leadership and make pease as well.

Quote by: PatrickHenry The vicious Zionists murdered their way into ascendancy in their neighborhood. Guess what? TERROR WORKS! That is why the Palestinians have turned to terror. IT EFFEN WORKS!

Yeah, yeah, yeah... so sez you. Mia got into this a while back. Yet for every example of violent injustice against the poor, poor Palestinians, I could always counter with one or more equivilent against the Israelis. And if it "EFFEN WORKS", why are the Palestinians living such 'effen' miserable lives?? Exactly how has terrorism enriched the lives of the Gaza Palestinians?

.

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart For every example of violent injustice against the poor, poor Palestinians, I could always counter with one or more equivilent against the Israelis.

That's what I mean about rant.

You don't have to be a wild-eyed Arabist or a raving anti-Semite to see that the Palestinians have been, by far, the worse off of the two since '48, and especially since '67, a period during which -- for all the occasional sniping, mine-laying, shelling and the more recent suicide bombing -- the Israelis have lived comfortably within their borders, the odd scare notwithstanding.

I'd even be willing to agree that the Palestinians are the fashionable victims du jour in a world of far more horrific tragedy.
However, I'd sure like to see you argue the issue if you were one, Sonart.

As for the Israelis being willing to accept the hand of peace, Sephardi immigration and all those Russian Jews (or in some cases "Jews") being shipped straight out to the Territories leave me none too confident.