Ex-Commander Says Iraq Effort Is ‘a Nightmare’

[grandpa]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/wa...in&oref=slogin

WASHINGTON, Oct. 12 — In a sweeping indictment of the four-year effort in Iraq, the former top commander of American forces there called the Bush administration’s handling of the war “incompetent” and said the result was “a nightmare with no end in sight.” Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, who retired in 2006 after being replaced in Iraq after the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, blamed the Bush administration for a “catastrophically flawed, unrealistically optimistic war plan” and denounced the current addition of American forces as a “desperate” move that would not achieve long-term stability.

So, what do you think: Is or is not Iraq much like a nightmare? Is this war in Iraq not catastrophically flawed?

Grandpa h.

[Thanatos]

Cue the stampede of mildly brain damaged Republicans who tell us how we're better off making more enemies over there than fighting them over here and how it will all get better if we just keep repeating the same set of mistakes that got us in this deep for a couple more months in five...four...three...two...one...

[Zeebadee]

I think we all know that this war was a colossal mistake, whatever we personally believe was behind it's initiation. We don't need people to tell us what we already know, what we need is for people like this to stand up BEFORE the war starts. Yeah, he probably would have been fired, but his allegiance should be to the country, not to his retirement package.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Zeebadee I think we all know that this war was a colossal mistake, whatever we personally believe was behind it's initiation. We don't need people to tell us what we already know, what we need is for people like this to stand up BEFORE the war starts. Yeah, he probably would have been fired, but his allegiance should be to the country, not to his retirement package.

Excellent point, Zeebadee. Retired General Sanchez gets no brownie points for facilitating the "nightmare" he nows condemns. The man should hang his head in shame and ask for the country's forgiveness and hope that he gets it. I for one am not ready to forgive...yet.

[Milton Bradley]

They knew this was the eventuality before the war started. They knew it before the first Bush administration. As a matter of fact they learned this same lesson way back in WW I. Wouldn't surprise to find it was a long held theory prior to that.


We need to quit pretending this was an accident, and persue criminal charges on the criminals in charge.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Milton Bradley They knew this was the eventuality before the war started. They knew it before the first Bush administration. As a matter of fact they learned this same lesson way back in WW I. Wouldn't surprise to find it was a long held theory prior to that. We need to quit pretending this was an accident, and persue criminal charges on the criminals in charge.

I'm not sure. Its often difficult to tell the actions of a very evil person from the actions of one who is merely catastrophically stupid and ignorant. My personal theory supported only by my own personal sense of people's motivations and speech patterns is that Bush didn't have a clue but Cheney did.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Thanatos I'm not sure. Its often difficult to tell the actions of a very evil person from the actions of one who is merely catastrophically stupid and ignorant. My personal theory supported only by my own personal sense of people's motivations and speech patterns is that Bush didn't have a clue but Cheney did.

It took a whole war department. I doubt nobody raised the warning.

[Milton Bradley]

A telling 60 Minutes peice about Iraq, and Bush administrations policies regarding Iraq, and terrorism.


YouTube - A BURIED 60 Minutes INTERVIEW / INDICTMENT


This is the result of electing lying criminals who hide behind their religion, and PR campaigns.

[jose]

Quote by: Milton Bradley It took a whole war department. I doubt nobody raised the warning.

The Office of Special Plans

The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise. "None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms. The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.

Special investigation: The spies who pushed for war on Iraq | Iraq | Guardian Unlimited
beware of next war mongers Iranian Directorate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Gaius]

The general should have spoken up WHILE he was still in the military, despite the consequences.

Retired military leaders condemning bush and this war is old already.

[bishop]

if you wait a bit longer, chances are extremely good that we'll hear the same from gen. patreaus as well...

what is most important, however, is that the fools in congress either want to continue/escalate this war, or are too chicken sh!t to end it. and now we see the leading establishment candidates being offered up in the next election, where all of them have essentially the same policy with regard to iraq - stay the course. if americans vote for them, they'll get what they deserve.

[Gaius]

Quote by: bishop if you wait a bit longer, chances are extremely good that we'll hear the same from gen. patreaus as well... .

Im sure of it !





After he "retires"

[grandpa]

Coincidentally, here is more on the Blackwater fiasco (another part of Iraq's nightmare)

US, Iraq Negotiate Blackwater Explusion

U.S. and Iraqi officials are negotiating Baghdad's demand that security company Blackwater USA be expelled from the country within six months, and American diplomats appear to be working on how to fill the security gap if the company is phased out. The talks about Blackwater's future in Iraq flow from recommendations in an Iraqi government report on the incident Sept. 16 when, Iraqi officials determined, Blackwater guards opened fire without provocation in Baghdad's Nisoor Square and killed 17 Iraqi citizens.

Grandpa h.

[xyzer]

What is lacking in this nonsensical placing of blame on the Bush Administration for the Iraqi adventure..is that the General spent almost half of his speech in a acathing indictment of the press (including the New York Times)) for its false reporting! Lets put the blame in some context rather than believe the Times version which is subjective and incomplete! Those two words cover it and most of the rest of our information sources reporting ot the occupation.


First the media and many congress persons were complicit in their agreement that Saddam was a threat in the middle east. He had been thwarted in the nuclear sense but still was trying to develop a nuclear program and was actively involved in the WMD of Biological and Chemical warfare! The media and many politicians were emphatic on the potential danger of the Hussein regime. They published much of the CIA intelligence data?

Next the good general pointed out(and the NYTimes conveniently left out of its article) that the press had repeatedly released false and misleading reports about the progress of the war and the restoration process and was still doing so! The media emphasis had always been predicated on failure and high casualties?Thus creating the aura of failure when there was progress being made. The media was encouraged in this blatant propagandizing by the Democrat political apparatus..e.g. Senator Reid saying the war is lost! Various politcal candidates criticising the effort and demanding immediate withdrawal? Even threatening to cut off funding?

Defeatism and a lack of resolve has been the main theme we the public are exposed to? That type of an attitude will stymie most any war effort? And it is represented in some of the posts on this thread. Congress authorises a campaign and then doesn't have the guts to see it through? Political expediency or cowardice, which is it?

I too thought the Iraq venture was wrong just as I though the Clinton interference in Yugoslavia was wrong. But if the Congress representing us, believed Iraq was a worthwhile target then I think we should see it through? Will the nearly 4,000 have died in vain? Evidently some here believe the will?

Instead of impatience we should give the persons involved a chance to create conditions for an orderly and safe withdrawal of our support! The rest of us, most of us who suffer nothing from the campaign should shut up and leave the issue to the on scene experts rather than mollifying the poltical opportunists? What have you dudes scariificed or had to give up because of it? Those who fight over there volunteered knowing that their choice of an occupation could be dangerous didn;t they>?

[Thanatos]

Wait, did I just hear that it wasn't the administrations fault and that all the blame belongs to the newspapers for passing along their lies? Yeah we can tar and feather them too, but lets start with the politicians.

[xyzer]

Wait, did I just hear that it wasn't the administrations fault and that all the blame belongs to the newspapers for passing along their lies? Yeah we can tar and feather them too, but lets start with the politicians.

I didn't say it was the Admin fault ! I said I disagreed with the effort! There is a difference? I know the buck stops at Bush's door!

My post was an effort to put in context the very slanted Times article that blamed Bush and Rumsfeld...all the while excusing(not including) the other contributors to the campaign...Press, congress etc; The generals main thrust was about the media slanted coverage and it effects.

The current crop of political candidates are also jumping on the blame wagon! Everything from torture, wrongful imprisonment, violations of civil rights to high casulty rates and ruining our world reputation are blamed on Iraq and the Bush Admin. There are many others who were invol=ved in the total process and most of them wont admit it.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer I didn't say it was the Admin fault ! I said I disagreed with the effort! There is a difference? I know the buck stops at Bush's door! My post was an effort to put in context the very slanted Times article that blamed Bush and Rumsfeld...all the while excusing(not including) the other contributors to the campaign...Press, congress etc; The generals main thrust was about the media slanted coverage and it effects. The current crop of political candidates are also jumping on the blame wagon! Everything from torture, wrongful imprisonment, violations of civil rights to high casulty rates and ruining our world reputation are blamed on Iraq and the Bush Admin. There are many others who were invol=ved in the total process and most of them wont admit it.

My apologies. Liberal wrath going back down to defcon 5.

[Gaius]

Quote by: xyzer I didn't say it was the Admin fault ! I said I disagreed with the effort! There is a difference? I know the buck stops at Bush's door! My post was an effort to put in context the very slanted Times article that blamed Bush and Rumsfeld...all the while excusing(not including) the other contributors to the campaign...Press, congress etc; The generals main thrust was about the media slanted coverage and it effects. The current crop of political candidates are also jumping on the blame wagon! Everything from torture, wrongful imprisonment, violations of civil rights to high casulty rates and ruining our world reputation are blamed on Iraq and the Bush Admin. There are many others who were invol=ved in the total process and most of them wont admit it.

Wait, lets clear this up, are you admitting the iraq war is a disaster?
I remember you being a border line goose stepping fascist, while at the same time afraid of the islamic boogyman comin to get you. DId you change? id be interested in what happened

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: xyzer I too thought the Iraq venture was wrong .....

Then why don't you just tell us, once and for all, who is responsible for getting us into this war? Who made the decision to go to war?? Was it the NY Times?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: xyzer What is lacking in this nonsensical placing of blame on the Bush Administration for the Iraqi adventure..is that the General spent almost half of his speech in a acathing indictment of the press (including the New York Times)) for its false reporting! Lets put the blame in some context rather than believe the Times version which is subjective and incomplete! Those two words cover it and most of the rest of our information sources reporting ot the occupation.

As if this times report is "coloring" the water around here.

Quote by: xyzer First the media and many congress persons were complicit in their agreement that Saddam was a threat in the middle east. He had been thwarted in the nuclear sense but still was trying to develop a nuclear program and was actively involved in the WMD of Biological and Chemical warfare! The media and many politicians were emphatic on the potential danger of the Hussein regime. They published much of the CIA intelligence data?

You talking about that Republican Congress in the begining of the war that were all comfortable abdicating their authority to the Unitary Executve?

Quote by: xyzer Next the good general pointed out(and the NYTimes conveniently left out of its article) that the press had repeatedly released false and misleading reports about the progress of the war and the restoration process and was still doing so! The media emphasis had always been predicated on failure and high casualties?Thus creating the aura of failure when there was progress being made. The media was encouraged in this blatant propagandizing by the Democrat political apparatus..e.g. Senator Reid saying the war is lost! Various politcal candidates criticising the effort and demanding immediate withdrawal? Even threatening to cut off funding?

We know people in the press are equally complicit in the perception of the American people, Hell, we talk to you guys all the time.

Quote by: xyzer Defeatism and a lack of resolve has been the main theme we the public are exposed to? That type of an attitude will stymie most any war effort? And it is represented in some of the posts on this thread. Congress authorises a campaign and then doesn't have the guts to see it through? Political expediency or cowardice, which is it?

Oh, do lecture us about defeatism Grand Master.


Honestly, I can't tell you why the big shift happened in the Congress opinion, but left to my own ponderings, I suspect it was because the anthrax quit showing up in the mail.

Quote by: xyzer I too thought the Iraq venture was wrong just as I though the Clinton interference in Yugoslavia was wrong. But if the Congress representing us, believed Iraq was a worthwhile target then I think we should see it through? Will the nearly 4,000 have died in vain? Evidently some here believe the will?

Hmmm, and here I was under the impression that Congress represented the "peoples views", not the other way around.

Quote by: xyzer Instead of impatience we should give the persons involved a chance to create conditions for an orderly and safe withdrawal of our support! The rest of us, most of us who suffer nothing from the campaign should shut up and leave the issue to the on scene experts rather than mollifying the poltical opportunists? What have you dudes scariificed or had to give up because of it? Those who fight over there volunteered knowing that their choice of an occupation could be dangerous didn;t they>?

Hmm, and just as the dialog becomes almost "reasonable", Congress makes a well timed move to involve a whole new dimension to this war, the Turks.


Damn, timing timing timing.