Ex-Commander Says Iraq Effort Is ‘a Nightmare’

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Thanatos My apologies. Liberal wrath going back down to deathcon 5.

Just for the record, it's DEFCON. ( Defense Condition. )

[The Decider]

Quote by: xyzer What is lacking in this nonsensical placing of blame on the Bush Administration for the Iraqi adventure..is that the General spent almost half of his speech in a acathing indictment of the press (including the New York Times)) for its false reporting! Lets put the blame in some context rather than believe the Times version which is subjective and incomplete! Those two words cover it and most of the rest of our information sources reporting ot the occupation.

Please provide a link to the full transcript.

Quote by: xyzer First the media and many congress persons were complicit in their agreement that Saddam was a threat in the middle east.

This is obvious. Even the New York Times peddled the Bush WMD/nuclear threat line. Look up former Times reporter Judith Miller's work in 2002 if you doubt me. The Washington Post endorsed the war. There are many media outlets that aided and abetted Bush's ill-conceived war in Iraq.

Quote by: xyzer Next the good general pointed out(and the NYTimes conveniently left out of its article) that the press had repeatedly released false and misleading reports about the progress of the war and the restoration process and was still doing so! The media emphasis had always been predicated on failure and high casualties?Thus creating the aura of failure when there was progress being made. The media was encouraged in this blatant propagandizing by the Democrat political apparatus..e.g. Senator Reid saying the war is lost! Various politcal candidates criticising the effort and demanding immediate withdrawal? Even threatening to cut off funding?

Again, please provide the full text so that we can see the context of Gen. Sanchez's remarks about the media. After all, General Sanchez did criticize the current surge as essentially a failure. He is in agreement with many in the media. So there appears to be a contradiction. The full text should clear it up.

[xyzer]

What do the defeatests add to the discussion? Nothing of value I fear. A tinge of ad hominenism here? A vague assertion there? An unrelated inventive comment elsewhere?
Durn it, the evidence is before you... the general took the press to task for their inventive, doomsday coverage of the war didn't he? The Times buried that part of his comments and played up the war is lost theme?

Those posters here who have suffered some severe emotional or financial problems because of the war in Iraq step up and lets hear of your travail? You are almost all convinced that President Bush and his evil side kick VP Cheney had some nefarious purpose in deposing Saddam. Believe too, that they have threatened your civil rights and security by engaging in a war with Iraq and a war against international terrorism? Those of you who believe that Iraq was a threat to the middle east like the majority of congress believed in 2002 should admit it? Were you duped by the press? Oh yes and while you are at it lets have some examples of your neighbors civil rights being violated by electronic surveillance of known terrorists in the wild war against terrorists? Ah that we could always be free of threats?

This quote by Edith Sitwell applies...
"The public will believe anything so long as it is not founded on truth."

[xyzer]

By the way Decider..if you don't believe me you look it up, try this http://www.militaryreporters.org/san...207.html - 22k
If this doesn't work, look it up on Google under General Sanchez...Military Reporters and Editors Luncheon on 12 October07

[Autolykos]

Xyzer, it might be instructive for you to read this:

Burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- Rob

[xyzer]

Hey Auto, shake your head and clear the cobwebs?
I posted a reference to the article, see above! Read it and see if it doesn't meet the burden of proof?
Sanchez castigated the media throughout most of his speech! He than placed much of the blame on the Iraqi lack of progress on a whole bunch of people and entities including the politicians, presidential candidates, congress, the Department of State(Bremer), Sec Def and above it all the press and media coverage. He aptly points out that success in war depends on a national effort. Unless all are involved and interested in success it will not happen! And who really pays the price? The soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines shedding their blood!

Grandpas original reference opening this thread ..the NYTimes article..was indicative of what Sanchez was talking about. The NYT(Press) mis reported the whole luncheon speech by failing to mention what he was really griping about?
The Times skewed the subject to fit its agenda which is one of the criticisms sanchez was making?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer Hey Auto, shake your head and clear the cobwebs? I posted a reference to the article, see above! Read it and see if it doesn't meet the burden of proof? Sanchez castigated the media throughout most of his speech! He than placed much of the blame on the Iraqi lack of progress on a whole bunch of people and entities including the politicians, presidential candidates, congress, the Department of State(Bremer), Sec Def and above it all the press and media coverage. He aptly points out that success in war depends on a national effort. Unless all are involved and interested in success it will not happen! And who really pays the price? The soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines shedding their blood!

And here we go with blaming everybody but the people who started it. Liberal wrath engaged. Firing.

The secret Downing Street memo - Times Online
Bush knew Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction | Salon

[xyzer]

Hmmm?

And here we go with blaming everybody but the people who started it. Liberal wrath engaged. Firing.

Who was it? Neocons, Bush, Cheney, Congress, Rumsfeld, JCS, Taliban, Osama, CIA, Media, British Intelligence, Saddam(rest his soul)Israel, ...

[Thanatos]

Quote by: xyzer Hmmm? Who was it? Neocons, Bush, Cheney, Congress, Rumsfeld, JCS, Taliban, Osama, CIA, Media, British Intelligence, Saddam(rest his soul)Israel, ...

What is your point supposed to be? There's plenty of blame to be passed around. We've established that fact already, or at least I thought we did.

[Milton Bradley]

YouTube - A BURIED 60 Minutes INTERVIEW / INDICTMENT


This is what we have added to the thread.


Did you bother to look at that link.

[Dieval]

Quote by: xyzer By the way Decider..if you don't believe me you look it up, try this http://www.militaryreporters.org/sanchez_101207.html If this doesn't work, look it up on Google under General Sanchez...Military Reporters and Editors Luncheon on 12 October07

One of the best lines in his speech... "PARTISAN POLITICS HAVE HINDERED THIS WAR EFFORT AND AMERICA SHOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS."

A slightly different reporters take on his speech can be found at Military Reporters and Editors

[The Decider]

Quote by: xyzer By the way Decider..if you don't believe me you look it up, try this http://www.militaryreporters.org/san...207.html - 22k If this doesn't work, look it up on Google under General Sanchez...Military Reporters and Editors Luncheon on 12 October07

The link you provided contains nothing except an error message. It's your obligation to offer proper evidence to back up a claim when challenged. Please supply that evidence.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Dieval [b]One of the best lines in his speech... "PARTISAN POLITICS HAVE HINDERED THIS WAR EFFORT AND AMERICA SHOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS."

Irrelevant. General Sanchez has training and expertise in one area--the US military and its Iraq mission. His generalized opinion of "the media"--without even having the courtesy to offer specifics for discussion--is far beyond the man's payscale. The pertinent comments in the speech come under the heading "OUR CURRENT NATIONAL SECURITY CONDITION."

Here are some of General Sanchez's words and observations:

DESPERATE STRUGGLE IN IRAQ

A CATASTROPHICALLY FLAWED, UNREALISTICALLY OPTIMISTIC WAR PLAN

LATEST "SURGE" STRATEGY--"DESPERATE"

CONTINUED MANIPULATIONS AND ADJUSTMENTS TO OUR MILITARY STRATEGY WILL NOT ACHIEVE VICTORY. (ie THE SURGE)

OUR NATIONS CRISIS IN LEADERSHIP

THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED TO EMPLOY AND SYNCHRONIZE ITS POLITICAL, ECONOMIC AND MILITARY POWER

INCOMPETENT STRATEGIC LEADERSHIP

NEGLECT AND INCOMPETENCE AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL LEVEL

AMERICA'S ABILITY TO SUSTAIN A FORCE LEVEL OF 150,000(+) IS NONEXISTENT WITHOUT DRASTIC MEASURES THAT HAVE BEEN POLITICALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO DATE (read DRAFT!)

http://www.militaryreporters.org/sanchez_101207.html

General Sanchez dissed the surge. No amount of diversion about the press or the Democrats or anything else can negate that glaring fact in his speech. Sanchez agrees with me--the surge has failed and could never succeed. To repeat Sanchez's own words:

CONTINUED MANIPULATIONS AND ADJUSTMENTS TO OUR MILITARY STRATEGY WILL NOT ACHIEVE VICTORY. (ie THE SURGE)

[jose]

Three days after Americans saw the Bush administration's counterterrorism chief say the Iraq war has likely not made the United States safer from terrorism, the official announced his resignation, citing health reasons.

The Blotter: After Comments, U.S. Terror Chief Resigns

[Dieval]

Quote by: The Decider Here are some of General Sanchez's words and observations: DESPERATE STRUGGLE IN IRAQ A CATASTROPHICALLY FLAWED, UNREALISTICALLY OPTIMISTIC WAR PLAN LATEST "SURGE" STRATEGY--"DESPERATE" CONTINUED MANIPULATIONS AND ADJUSTMENTS TO OUR MILITARY STRATEGY WILL NOT ACHIEVE VICTORY. (ie THE SURGE) OUR NATIONS CRISIS IN LEADERSHIP THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED TO EMPLOY AND SYNCHRONIZE ITS POLITICAL, ECONOMIC AND MILITARY POWER INCOMPETENT STRATEGIC LEADERSHIP NEGLECT AND INCOMPETENCE AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL LEVEL AMERICA'S ABILITY TO SUSTAIN A FORCE LEVEL OF 150,000(+) IS NONEXISTENT WITHOUT DRASTIC MEASURES THAT HAVE BEEN POLITICALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO DATE (read DRAFT!) http://www.militaryreporters.org/sanchez_101207.html General Sanchez dissed the surge. No amount of diversion about the press or the Democrats or anything else can negate that glaring fact in his speech. Sanchez agrees with me--the surge has failed and could never succeed. To repeat Sanchez's own words: CONTINUED MANIPULATIONS AND ADJUSTMENTS TO OUR MILITARY STRATEGY WILL NOT ACHIEVE VICTORY. (ie THE SURGE)

And if you continue further down that same paragraph that you pulled apart, he says -
"AN EVEN WORSE AND MORE DISTURBING ASSESSMENT IS THAT AMERICA CAN NOT ACHIEVE THE POLITICAL CONSENSUS NECESSARY TO DEVISE A GRAND STRATEGY THAT WILL SYNCHRONIZE AND COMMIT OUR NATIONAL POWER TO ACHIEVE VICTORY IN IRAQ. "
Sounds to me that he's saying we COULD acheive victory there if everyone would get behind our troops, give them what they need and give them the power to WIN the war, rather than one group consistantly trying to undermine our actions there.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval And if you continue further down that same paragraph that you pulled apart, he says - "AN EVEN WORSE AND MORE DISTURBING ASSESSMENT IS THAT AMERICA CAN NOT ACHIEVE THE POLITICAL CONSENSUS NECESSARY TO DEVISE A GRAND STRATEGY THAT WILL SYNCHRONIZE AND COMMIT OUR NATIONAL POWER TO ACHIEVE VICTORY IN IRAQ. " Sounds to me that he's saying we COULD acheive victory there if everyone would get behind our troops, give them what they need and give them the power to WIN the war, rather than one group consistantly trying to undermine our actions there.

So, what is this "GRAND STRATEGY" (borrowing your style of all caps), other than how "AMERICA HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO CONTINUE OUR EFFORTS IN IRAQ"?

There is still that umbra of failure in his words.

Grandpa h.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Dieval Sounds to me that he's saying we COULD acheive victory there if everyone would get behind our troops, give them what they need and give them the power to WIN the war, rather than one group consistantly trying to undermine our actions there.

No, he's saying that a "POLITICAL CONSENSUS" is necessary for us to win. So when will bush take the first step towards such a consensus? So far he's insisted that his way is right, and the only way.

[xyzer]

Decider..

The link you provided contains nothing except an error message. It's your obligation to offer proper evidence to back up a claim when challenged. Please supply that evidence

Thats why I told you to Google it under General Sanchez...the site contains a word for word coverage of the speech!

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa So, what is this "GRAND STRATEGY" (borrowing your style of all caps), other than how "AMERICA HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO CONTINUE OUR EFFORTS IN IRAQ"? There is still that umbra of failure in his words. Grandpa h.

The all caps are because the text of his speech were in all caps...(guess you didn't read it, eh?)
It's not my job to come up with a "GRAND STRATEGY"..I'm not the commander and chief, general, nor in the military at all, and I'm not going to play arm chair general and try to come up with a "GRAND STRATEGY" and try to tell the military how to do their job.

[xyzer]

You got the point Zee! I can only ask you, why doesn't Congress strive for agreement either. All I've seen from them is a stubbor, many faceted, attempt to hinder the effort...through funding, resolutions, and other means.
It seems obvious to me that demanding a hurried exit from Iraq is ridiculous and would percipitate chaos in the middle east! Agree Bush has been stubborn and slow to act but all Congress has done is antagonoze him and those who are leading the fight in Iraq..Patraeus and Sanchez. Realistic solutions appear to be lacking?

Bottom line.... it takes a coordinated effort at home to fight such a campaign and as Sanchez mentions it hasn't happened! And I add again the press has reported results in a derrogatory fashion...often far from truthful?