Ex-Commander Says Iraq Effort Is ‘a Nightmare’

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez I suppose for you to find the article objective it would have to acknowledge there are no chances of success?

Has bush ever defined what success is in Iraq?

[rmnunez]

Why should success in Iraq be defined by Bush?

Success can be objectively identified. Some would set a very high standard and expect Iraq after a successful intervention to be as stable, democratic, affluent and socially responsible as Japan or Germany (two formerly militarily occupied countries). Others may more reasonably take into account local idiosyncrases and anticipate how mirroring Germany or Japan in Iraq might take a bit longer and find success adequate if it seems the government is fairly stable and democratic and moving generally towards social responsibility improving the outlook of the citizenry.

When do we 'freeze-frame' and answer whether we see success? Is it when the last united statian soldier leaves? If that were the case, given that there are still US forces in both Japan and Germany, we really don't have a model for successful military occupation.

I think we see some success in Iraq already. Its definitely true the government there now is more democratic, but I don't think its more stable. I think the government is also more socially responsible and we don't see political, religious or ethnic repression by the government, these are successes. We need more stability before we'll get much infrastructural improvement which in turn will allow us to see grreater social responsibility and how wealth gets distributed. They've done a lot of military integration and this is a good thing that ought to enhance stability and improve government responsibility.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rmnunez I suppose for you to find the article objective it would have to acknowledge there are no chances of success?

That would still be biased. But I have a problem with such subtle bias . If you have a bias, don't mask it in sneaky subtlety. That's intellectual cowardice.

I think objectivity is basically a myth.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rmnunez Why should success in Iraq be defined by Bush? Success can be objectively identified.

No, it can't. Success is a subjective point of view, as is virtually everything else.

Former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz once expressed a possible view of success, for example:
"I think all foreigners should stop interfering in the internal affairs of
Iraq." Note not just the irony, but also the subjectivity.

To some, success is when they can look at themselves in
the mirror in the morning. To others, I'd say with less of a conscience, success may be "objectively identified" as warfare.

Either way, I personally wouldn't say Iraq is a rip-roaring success:
A week in Iraq: 'People say things are better, but it's still terrible here' - Middle East, World - Independent.co.uk

Iraq is less violent than a year ago, but the country is still the most dangerous in the world. So it was no surprise to anyone in Baghdad, where people have long dreaded a renewal of al-Qa'ida's savage bombing campaign directed at Shia civilians, that there should be suicide attacks on two bird markets, killing 92 people on Friday.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

More news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/wo...ld&oref=slogin BAGHDAD — Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said for the first time Monday that he supported a pause in American troop reductions in Iraq. It was the most authoritative indication to date that the United States will maintain a large force here through 2008 and into the next presidential term.

[rmnunez]

Indeed, but what makes you think a sudden withdrawal would be desirable?

[grandpa]

Because it's the only decent choice.
America has done much to destroy Iraq over the years, and they wnat to keep it that way:

US troops must stay in Iraq beyond 2008: Gates, Rice - Yahoo! News WASHINGTON (AFP) - US forces will remain in Iraq beyond the end of the current UN mandate, but a continued US troop presence will not tie the hands of a future US president, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates wrote in a newspaper column Wednesday. "It is clear ... that US forces will need to operate in Iraq beyond the end of this year for progress in stabilizing Iraq to continue," the top US diplomatic and military officials wrote in The Washington Post.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

I just noticed this:

Deal between key Iraq Shiite figures collapses - Yahoo! News NAJAF, Iraq, Feb 17, 2008 (AFP) - Radical Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's movement Sunday announced it was cancelling a pact it signed four months ago with its main Shiite rival aimed at reducing tension between the two groups. The agreement between the Sadrists and the Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council (SIIC) of Abdel Aziz al-Hakim "has failed and is cancelled," Nassar al-Rubaie, spokesman for the Sadr bloc in parliament, told AFP.

[Zeebadee]

While some continue to insist that we can fight a war without defining success or failure, thus continuing a war that will be over when "the decider" tells us it's over, more good news rolls in from the front.

" U.S. tab for translation services in Iraq could hit $4.6 billion

The prime beneficiary of the project has been Global Linguist Solutions, based in Falls Church, Va. GLS, a joint venture of DynCorp International and McNeil Technologies, which has won a contract with a maximum value of $4.6 billion through 2013."
World Tribune — U.S. tab for translation services in Iraq could hit $4.6 billion

So much for bringing freedom to Iraq and then leaving.

"Turkey Launches Ground Operation in Iraq

Turkish troops launched a ground incursion across the border into Iraq in pursuit of separatist Kurdish rebels, the military said Friday - a move that dramatically escalates Turkey's conflict with the militants."
My Way News - Turkey Launches Ground Operation in Iraq

And, last:

"Insurgents in the Bloodstream

Now that's much different. We've had hundreds of positive cultures over the last four years."

And the toll has been serious, observes Army Col. Glenn Wortmann, acting chief of infectious disease at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C. "Of the infectious disease problems that have come out of the conflict," notes Dr. Wortmann, "it is the most important complication we've seen."

Yes sir, nothing but good news from the war on terrists.

[sevendogs]

We have incompetent president. Let us wait what Obama or Clinton would do.

[sevendogs]

McCain wants to continue in Iraq. What is going on in Afghanistan? Look here:
Pentagon questions Obama’s soldier story - Barack Obama News - MSNBC.com

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: grandpa Either way, I personally wouldn't say Iraq is a rip-roaring success:Grandpa h.

The aftermath of most wars isn't usually what looks like success. There's going to be a lot of devastation. This war has been even tougher because we've had outside influences messing with the successes.

If there hadn't been all this insurgency Iraq would be looking a lot better, and Bush would be getting A+'s all over the place. That wasn't in the cards unfortunately, so it's gonna take longer.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: grandpa 'People say things are better, but it's still terrible here' - Middle East, World - Independent.co.uk[/url]Grandpa h.

"People say", those are the key words. They couldn't say anything under Saddam. How many people complain about their governments over there? Syria, Turkey, Iran, Egypt? If they do, they get their heads chopped off and their families get killed. The ME has to get away from the barbarism, or at least curtail it.

I don't believe this war was necessary for the reasons given, but that's where Bush and mainly his staff made their big mistake. They should have given a lot more thought as to how they presented this war. The way they presented it stunk.

We hardly ever hear about the trouble in many of the African countries, but they've been having huge, huge problems for a very long time, way before we got involved in Iraq. Could say it's "terrible" over there as well.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...rica/Intro.asp

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: sevendogs We have incompetent president. Let us wait what Obama or Clinton would do.

No, the President has had an incompetent staff. Obama seems pretty naive about foreign affairs, so I'm not counting on him doing that hot in that area if he gets elected. Clinton would at least have her husband to ask for advice which would be better, I think.

I really get a little scared about Obama. He'd have to have a really good staff to look to for advice, and if he got Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton in there I wouldn't be real happy. I like Jackson to a degree, but Sharpton is still a bit of a preacher to me.

[Zeebadee]

Oops, forgot to include a link to the insurgents in the bloodstream post:

Insurgents in the Bloodstream

[grandpa]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe The aftermath of most wars isn't usually what looks like success. There's going to be a lot of devastation.

That's an argument against war rather than for it.

Grandpa h.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: grandpa That's an argument against war rather than for it. Grandpa h.

Things that are broken can be fixed, losing freedom isn't something you can put a price on.

But you're right there are arguments against war, no doubt about it. It's unfortunate that people don't always act right.

[rmnunez]

It seems like things in Iraq are trending towards improvement, the insurgency and terrorism have been substantially curtailed, though there have been significant terrorist attacks recently. The most substantial recent development has been the Turkish intervention, but this is a rather minor and somewhat symbolic matter.

In Afghanistan the situation seems fairly stable as well. Although there are insurgents and terrorists loose in the hinterlands, they really haven't been very organized and NATO seems to have proven an effective and well coordinated force with sufficient technological advantages to keep the fragmented tribal warlords at bay, or maybe its not "fighting season" yet.

[grandpa]

Quote by: rmnunez It seems like things in Iraq are trending towards improvement, the insurgency and terrorism have been substantially curtailed, though there have been significant terrorist attacks recently. The most substantial recent development has been the Turkish intervention, but this is a rather minor and somewhat symbolic matter.

Turkey's presence is mostly symbolic, huh? I've noticed a lot of Bush supporters turn the imaginary into the real and the real into the imaginary (in this case, Turkey's merely "symbolic" presence in Iraq). Then again, such elaborate mental gymnastics are required to believe the US government at this point.

Grandpa h.

[rmnunez]

Yes, Turkey's intervention is largely symbolic, they've barely gotten 20 miles into Iraq.