Australian security firm accused of gunning down 2 women in Iraq:

[Praxius]

Australian security firm accused of gunning down 2 women in Iraq

Guards with an Australian-owned security firm are reported to have fired on a car as it approached their convoy in Iraq on Tuesday, killing two women civilians before speeding away. The incident is the latest case of bloodshed blamed on the deadly mix of heavily armed protection details in Baghdad's crowded streets. The deaths of the two Iraqi Christian women — including one who used the white sedan as an unofficial taxi to raise money for her family — came one day after the Iraqi government handed U.S. officials a report demanding the ouster of the embattled Blackwater USA security firm from Iraq for a chaotic shooting last month that left at least 17 civilians dead. The women's deaths on Tuesday at a large intersection may sharpen demands to curb the expanding array of security firms in Iraq watching over diplomats, aid groups and others. The Australian security company, Unity Resources Group, expressed remorse for the incident. "We deeply regret this incident," CEO Michael Priddin said in a statement. Priddin said the company would disclose more details of the shooting after "the facts have been verified and the necessary people and authorities notified." Priddin would not comment on whether his guards killed the women. Smoke bomb But initial accounts — from company statements, witnesses and others — suggested the guards opened fire as the car failed to heed warnings to stop and drifted closer to the convoy in central Baghdad's Karrahah district. It was not immediately clear whether the guards were protecting a client at the time, but a group that uses its security agents said its personnel were not at the scene. Four armored SUVs were about 90 metres from a main intersection at about 1:40 p.m. local time when a white Oldsmobile car moved into the crossroads. Unity guards threw a smoke bomb in an apparent bid to warn the car not to come closer, said Riyadh Majid, an Iraqi policeman who saw the shooting. Two of the Unity guards then opened fire. The woman driving the car tried to stop, but was killed along with her passenger. Two of three people in the back seat were wounded. Priddin's statement offers a similar account: "The first information that we have is that our security team was approached at speed by a vehicle which failed to stop despite an escalation of warnings which included hand signals and a signal flare. Finally shots were fired at the vehicle and it stopped." Majid said the convoy raced away after the shooting. A second policeman, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared retribution, said the guards were masked and wearing khaki uniforms. He said one of them left the vehicle and started to shoot at the car while another opened fire from the open back door of a separate SUV. Raising money for daughters The victims were identified by relatives and police as Marou Awanis, in her 40s, and Geneva Jalal, in her late 20s or early 30s. Awanis' sister-in-law, Anahet Bougous, said Awanis had been using her car to drive government employees to work to help raise money for her three daughters. Her husband died during heart surgery last year. "May God take revenge on those killers," Bougous said, crying outside the police station. "Now, who is going to raise them?" Unity is owned by Australian partners, but headquartered in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. It provides security for RTI International, a U.S. group that promotes governance projects in Iraq for the U.S. Agency for International Development. RTI said none of its staff members "were involved or present when the incident occurred." An embassy spokeswoman said RTI was under contract by USAID, but was responsible for its own security. "USAID does not direct the security arrangements of contractors," embassy spokeswoman Mirembe Nantongo said. Iraqi anger has grown against the private security companies — nearly all based in the United States, Britain and other Western countries — as symbols of the lawlessness that has ravaged their country for more than four years. "Today's incident is part of a series of reckless actions by some security companies," Ali al-Dabbagh, Iraq's government spokesman, said Tuesday. Unity involved in 2006 incident An Iraqi investigation of the Blackwater shooting on Sept. 16 called for the company to pay $8 million US in compensation to the families of each of the 17 victims. The commission also said Blackwater guards had killed 21 other Iraqis in past incidents since it began protecting American diplomats in Iraq shortly after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Unity also has come under scrutiny before. In March 2006, the company issued an statement of sympathy after one of its guards was blamed for shooting a 72-year-old Iraqi-born Australian, Kays Juma, at a security checkpoint in Baghdad. Unity provides armed guards and security training throughout Iraq. Its heavily armed teams are Special Forces veterans from Australia, the United States, New Zealand and Britain, as well as former law enforcement officers from those countries. RTI International said Unity was fully co-operating with Iraqi and U.S. officials investigating the incident. "We are deeply saddened by this loss of life," RTI spokesman Patrick Gibbons said in a statement. "While we have every reason to believe that proper security protocols were followed, that is a matter to be determined by the investigation."

Ok, this is a little more iffy then the blackwater incident.... but I don't understand why they only used a smoke bomb as a warning..... who tf understands that fully?

Warning shots are usually the best effective means of making them stop, and as they claimed in the article, when they opened fire, she attempted to stop, but they directed fire at her without warning shots.... that could have made all the difference in this case.

And then just taking off from the scene doesn't sound all that good.... you'd think that if they realized they were not going to bomb them and they stopped the vehicle that perhaps one might call for medical assistence or something else to make it look like things were being done properly.

*Shrugs*

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius Warning shots are usually the best effective means of making them stop, and as they claimed in the article, when they opened fire, she attempted to stop, but they directed fire at her without warning shots.... that could have made all the difference in this case.

In a place known for car bombings...do you take chances when a car comes speeding at you?

Quote by: Praxius And then just taking off from the scene doesn't sound all that good.... you'd think that if they realized they were not going to bomb them

When did they realize they weren't going to bomb them?
I know you like metaphores so....if a large firecracker doesn't explode when it's supposed to, do you go race over to it and pick it up? Not likely.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval In a place known for car bombings...do you take chances when a car comes speeding at you?

That's the proceedure in Afghanistan, and it usually works... probably a lot better the chucking a smoke bomb..... if I was driving, I wouldn't know wtf that ment..... I'd be wondering what they were doing..... if they shot in the air or towards me.... I am pretty sure I'd stop pretty quickly.

When did they realize they weren't going to bomb them?

When they realized they shot wounded and killed people in the vehicle and it stopped.... normally after an incident like this, one would investigate and report it.... not take off. If they investigated the incident that they were directly involved in, they probably would have seen there were no bombs in the car..... perhaps that's why they took off in the first place.

I know you like metaphores so....if a large firecracker doesn't explode when it's supposed to, do you go race over to it and pick it up? Not likely.

There's gotta be a firecracker to see first. I understand the area is quite hostile, but that's all the more reason to use the best proceedures to protect yourself, as well as protect the innocent around you.

[jose]

no one seems to care about cars approaching from the front!
lots of Iraqi people have been killed like this,but up until now little attention was paid to killing of ¨Rag-heads¨
Aegis Snipings in Iraq

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius That's the proceedure in Afghanistan, and it usually works... probably a lot better the chucking a smoke bomb..... if I was driving, I wouldn't know wtf that ment..... I'd be wondering what they were doing..... if they shot in the air or towards me.... I am pretty sure I'd stop pretty quickly.

You're not a homicide bomber so your mentality is a bit different. Maybe they did open with a few warning shots...I believe this is still being investigated.

Quote by: Praxius When they realized they shot wounded and killed people in the vehicle and it stopped....

What happens if the person isn't dead, they have a bomb, and you walk up and investigate? Boom!

Quote by: Praxius normally after an incident like this, one would investigate and report it....

Did they report it? I don't believe the article was clear on that.

Quote by: Praxius not take off. If they investigated the incident that they were directly involved in, they probably would have seen there were no bombs in the car..... perhaps that's why they took off in the first place.

If they did not report what happened, then that is clearly a problem, but as that point was not made in the article, we don't know what happened. As for leaving the scene after a potential threat is neutralized, I can understand that.

Quote by: Praxius There's gotta be a firecracker to see first.

That's just it, do you go up and go through the whole care to determine if there is a bomb, while someone else could potentially set it off? Obviously the answer is no.

Quote by: Praxius I understand the area is quite hostile, but that's all the more reason to use the best proceedures to protect yourself, as well as protect the innocent around you.

Best procedure, neutralize the threat and leave the area. No chance of death to you or your cargo. Did it say that other civilians were killed or other collateral damage occurred?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval You're not a homicide bomber so your mentality is a bit different.

Yeah and so was her mentality, sicne she wasn't a bomber to begin with.... that's the issue at hand.

Maybe they did open with a few warning shots...I believe this is still being investigated.

Maybe, but they didn't.... they seemed pretty detailed about how they attempted to make her stop... normally one would mention they fired a few warning shots to help support their claim that they did everything they should have.

Until they find that the did fire warning shots, they didn't.

What happens if the person isn't dead, they have a bomb, and you walk up and investigate? Boom!

That's life, but I would rather risk my own life then to live the rest of my life knowing I killed an innocent.

Did they report it? I don't believe the article was clear on that. If they did not report what happened, then that is clearly a problem, but as that point was not made in the article, we don't know what happened. As for leaving the scene after a potential threat is neutralized, I can understand that.

True, I am only going on the information provided... my views always change when new info is provided.

That's just it, do you go up and go through the whole care to determine if there is a bomb, while someone else could potentially set it off? Obviously the answer is no.

So instead, you shoot them all to death and drive away without actually trying to see if you were fighting an enemy? Sounds more careless then prudent.

Best procedure, neutralize the threat and leave the area. No chance of death to you or your cargo. Did it say that other civilians were killed or other collateral damage occurred?

No, the innocent who have been killed already is plenty enough, and with the careless mentality there, The thing is... yeah, it's a hostile enviroment, but you're there for the people you claim to be liberating and giving freedom to... but instead your scared of those same people and so you shoot them, kill them and take off without any cares.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, plain and simple. This is no longer trying to make their lives better, this is about being ocupiers and just trying to survive until pulled out.... quite counter productive and shows that there is no actual plan in place, nobody knows what they're doing over there.... and here isn't any actual plan to end any of this.

But as I said, when more information is provided, I may change my attitude.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius sicne she wasn't a bomber to begin with....

But all indications pointed otherwise...

Quote by: Praxius Maybe, but they didn't.... they seemed pretty detailed about how they attempted to make her stop... normally one would mention they fired a few warning shots to help support their claim that they did everything they should have. Until they find that the did fire warning shots, they didn't.

It seems that jury is still out on this one...according to CNN -

Quote by: CNN One man who said he witnessed the shooting said it appeared that the women in the car were frightened when the people in the security detail fired warning shots. Australian security firm involved in shooting, Iraq official says - CNN.com

Quote by: Praxius That's life,

That's life? Actually, we call that death..

Quote by: Praxius but I would rather risk my own life then to live the rest of my life knowing I killed an innocent.

Again, whether they knew these people were innocent is the question...

Quote by: Praxius So instead, you shoot them all to death and drive away without actually trying to see if you were fighting an enemy? Sounds more careless then prudent.

Actually, it does sound very prudent. Wait to have a potential bomb blow you up or neutralize the potential threat?

Quote by: Praxius No, the innocent who have been killed already is plenty enough, and with the careless mentality there, The thing is... yeah, it's a hostile enviroment, but you're there for the people you claim to be liberating and giving freedom to... but instead your scared of those same people and so you shoot them, kill them and take off without any cares.

I don't believe the security company is claiming to liberate anyone...they are providing security in the rebuilding process.

Quote by: Praxius If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, plain and simple. This is no longer trying to make their lives better, this is about being ocupiers and just trying to survive until pulled out.... quite counter productive and shows that there is no actual plan in place, nobody knows what they're doing over there.... and here isn't any actual plan to end any of this.

Baseless and useless rhetoric.

[grandpa]

Here's more carnage as well, done in the name of "liberating" people (presumably from their lives).

U.S. military: 19 insurgents and 15 civilians, including 9 children, killed in raid targeting al-Qaida in Iraq - International Herald Tribune

BAGHDAD: U.S. troops backed by attack aircraft killed 19 suspected insurgents and 15 civilians, including nine children, in an operation Thursday targeting al-Qaida in Iraq leaders northwest of Baghdad, the military said. An initial airstrike struck a "time-sensitive target," killing four insurgents in the Lake Tharthar area after intelligence reports indicated senior members of al-Qaida in Iraq were meeting there, according to a statement.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Here's more carnage as well, done in the name of "liberating" people (presumably from their lives). U.S. military: 19 insurgents and 15 civilians, including 9 children, killed in raid targeting al-Qaida in Iraq - International Herald Tribune

And this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval And this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

Because we're discussing civilian deaths, maybe?

Grandpa h.

[Dieval]

Quote by: grandpa Because we're discussing civilian deaths, maybe? Grandpa h.

The thread is named "Australian security firm accused of gunning down 2 women in Iraq", not "civilian deaths in Iraq"...

[grandpa]

Quote by: Dieval The thread is named "Australian security firm accused of gunning down 2 women in Iraq", not "civilian deaths in Iraq"...

I wasn't aware the issues were so totally unrelated.:rolleyes:

Grandpa h.