Death penalty in USA becomes brutal torture for prisoners

[ruksak]

Quote by: nerdvincent I agree. And for those who will say the murderer earn death, well just tell yourself that being in jail for the rest of his life is way worse than death...for peoples who want it to be worse. Some people, a very few of course, take a new start in jail. They open schoolbooks and study, learn for the sake of learning, and eventually live happily for it. And if a good day they get out of the hole, for a reason X or Y, they are new, useful and possibly good peoples. Death sentence don't let that chance, and every crimes can be forgiven. And for the other ones well they get bored till they're living dead. It's bad enough to punish them.

I don't really want a guy that kidnapped, brutally rapes and tortures and then murders a 5 year old little girl, to be reading, learning and "bettering" himself. Given enough time, I'm sure the guy will come to realize why it was wrong to sodomize a toddler with a hunting knife. Then again, I would sleep better at night knowing he's decomposing deep within the ground.

[donfie]

I am in no way suggesting that I believe in the rehabilitation of violent criminals, I don't. As far as I'm concerned (and for whatever reasons) you are or you aren't. The regret of the criminal for getting caught is not the same as the regret of committing the crime. Also, in a highly routine and authorative environment the criminal may well resolve not to do it anymore and may believe they won't with every fibre of their being then, back in the outside world, amongst the same influences, pressures and apparent lack of authority, they revert to type.

Then again, I would sleep better at night knowing he's decomposing deep within the ground.

Would you sleep better because you know he was in a place where he could no more cause you harm or because your satisfied that he got what he deserved (or both)?

If it's simply the former then surely locking him away for the rest of his life is enough. If it's the latter then I'd suggest, as has been stated before, that it says more about you as a person than the state of correction.

For me, the only requirement of a prison is to keep the criminals out of society. No revenge. No rehabilitation. Just keep them away from me and mine.

Some people say prison isn't a harsh enough punishment as they're more like a holiday camp. Me, I don't care whether they're eating caviar and humping super-models. Just keep them away from me.

[grandpa]

Quote by: ruksak I don't really want a guy that kidnapped, brutally rapes and tortures and then murders a 5 year old little girl, to be reading, learning and "bettering" himself. Given enough time, I'm sure the guy will come to realize why it was wrong to sodomize a toddler with a hunting knife.

I agree something is terribly wrong with such a person, but I don't sleep better if he gets killed (either by electric chair, "a hunting knife," or otherwise).
In such cases, I can certainly understand detainment, maybe some kind of medication.

Grandpa h.

[donfie]

As far as I see it there are a number of stances on correction:

1. It's a deterrant.
2. It's a punishment.
3. It's a means of rehabilitaion.
4. It's just to get them out of the way.

There's no evidence that 1 or 3 works in any significant way. 2. is either linked to 1 and/or 3. or is simply a matter of revenge and does indeed lower us. For me, 4. is all I care about because my only concern is my safety.

[grandpa]

Quote by: donfie As far as I see it there are a number of stances on correction: 1. It's a deterrant. 2. It's a punishment.

Fair enough. I think 1 and 2 are most often cited, right?
I am generally opposed to prison, but there are exceptions, and most people know what they would be.

I do think the debate is a little slanted. To admit we need a very strong system of "deterrent" seems to imply the existing system (which is very "strong") does just that, which I think is nonsense. The system certainly punishes some, but itself functions much like a criminal protection racket, and a very violent one. I think it's unfair to everyone to overlook this aspect of the system, which we can see in innumerable cases (both historical and more recent).

I share your basic position, and I'd like to keep those criminals away as well.

Grandpa h.

[nerdvincent]

Given enough time, I'm sure the guy will come to realize why it was wrong to sodomize a toddler with a hunting knife

Isn't what we want? Watch out, I don't want raper to be given a 2 buck fine. What I say is that if there is a chance the man realise what's wrong with himself in 60 years of detention, and eventually cure it (staying in jail of course), he got a chance to live and do what he wouldn't have done without being caught, aka learning. What I see in jail is a house of reabilitaion, of re-education for deviants.
For the ones who still beg the guardian for juniors in playoys suit, well they are fine where they are and eventually suicide after a couple of years. So it's a final chance for people who want to regret their deeds, or to finish a life in boringness.

[Osborn F Enready]

nervidicent, you neglect to address the point that the "time in prison" costs money, and someone has to pay.

Why should the taxpayers conscent to that use of their tax money?

[nerdvincent]

Oh! What a nice argument! Nobody thought about it before? And I can't disagree.
But what can I say? Let do a lego factory in a jail, the guy have to work for staying here. Wouldn't be a bad idea to rentabilize jail...

[Rooster]

What a load of crap. I am sure they were innocent too of whatever landed them on death row.

Did they consider the feeling of their victims? or have any compassion for their victims? I don't think so.

Who gives a crap if they suffered a few minutes. I sure dont. Next time put a $2.5 bullet in their head and get it over with

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: donfie I am in no way suggesting that I believe in the rehabilitation of violent criminals, I don't. As far as I'm concerned (and for whatever reasons) you are or you aren't.

Any support for your belief, or do you just base these things on your "gut"?:rolleyes:

The regret of the criminal for getting caught is not the same as the regret of committing the crime. Also, in a highly routine and authorative environment the criminal may well resolve not to do it anymore and may believe they won't with every fibre of their being then, back in the outside world, amongst the same influences, pressures and apparent lack of authority, they revert to type.

Which is why systems of controlled release are important, and why I am opposed to determinate sentencing.

For me, the only requirement of a prison is to keep the criminals out of society. No revenge. No rehabilitation. Just keep them away from me and mine.

Well that certainly is the popular head-in-the-sand position. The problem is that better than 95% of prisoners will walk out of the prison under their own power. What kind of people do we want to come out? People that have been locked away and ignored for years, or people that have improved their situation?

Quote by: donfie As far as I see it there are a number of stances on correction: 1. It's a deterrant. 2. It's a punishment. 3. It's a means of rehabilitaion. 4. It's just to get them out of the way. There's no evidence that 1 or 3 works in any significant way.

On the contrary, there is a lot of evidence that in a proper program, there is significant rehabilitation and lower rates of recidivism.

Substance abusing criminals who get treatment in prison show particular success in avoiding repeat offenses. I'm looking for something I can link you to that does not require a journal subscription.

2. is either linked to 1 and/or 3. or is simply a matter of revenge and does indeed lower us. For me, 4. is all I care about because my only concern is my safety.

But again, given what we know - that 95% of people in prison will someday get out and be returned to the community - does it not improve your safety to do something while they are in prison to lower their chances of committing a crime after release?

In a nutshell, I am saying your approach is short-sighted.

Quote by: Rooster What a load of crap. I am sure they were innocent too of whatever landed them on death row.

DNA evidence has shown that, yes, a significant number of them are. Does that change your feelings, or would you just rather kill 'em all and let God sort it out?

Did they consider the feeling of their victims? or have any compassion for their victims? I don't think so. Who gives a crap if they suffered a few minutes. I sure dont. Next time put a $2.5 bullet in their head and get it over with

Well that's certainly the "tough guy" position. :rolleyes: Have you thought about the fact that criminals doing what they do in your first paragraph there are doing something wrong? Maybe that if we do the same - not consider their feelings, not have compassion, that makes us just as bad as the criminals??? Should we not aspire to do better?