Bush Says Surveillance Law Must Be Updated to Deal With Today's Terrorists

[Captain Cardio]

Bush Says Surveillance Law Must Be Updated to Deal With Today's Terrorists -- 07/30/2007

"The administration has not been honest about the effect of this bill, and people in Congress know it," she added. "This bill is not about foreign communications, it greatly infringes on the rights of Americans.

I'm surprised nobody else posted this one. They're legalizing warrentless wire tapping and surveillance?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Steve Colbert had a word where he said that this undermines Bush's ability to break the law, but anyway. It's kinda disturbing that a congress supposedly elected to curb Bush has voted him this power. Would it really be all that hard to have som judges be on call with the FBI?

[Praxius]

Wern't they already doing that before with the patriot act?

*Reads further in the article*

Well isn't this one more step in the crapper:

The proposals include empowering authorities to gather intelligence about foreign targets in foreign locations without having to obtain a court order first. "To stop [terrorists], our military, law enforcement and intelligence professionals need the best possible information about who the terrorists are, where they are and what they are planning," Bush said in his weekly radio address. "One of the most important ways we can gather that information is by monitoring terrorist communications."

So this means now they're not just wire tapping the US public without the need of warrents or court orders, etc..... now they're permitting espionage towards any country and all of their citizens? That's a smooth way to make countries hate and mistrust you even more......

The FISA "provides a critical legal foundation that allows our intelligence community to collect this information while protecting the civil liberties of Americans," Bush said on Saturday. "But this important law was written in 1978, and it addressed the technologies of that era. This law is badly out of date -- and Congress must act to modernize it."

Much like how he's twisting the constitution as he sees fit?

"Today, we face sophisticated terrorists who use disposable cell phones and the Internet to communicate with each other, recruit operatives and plan attacks on our country," he said. "Technologies like these were not available when FISA was passed nearly 30 years ago, and FISA has not kept up with new technological developments.

Perhaps True, but:

"As a result, our nation is hampered in its ability to gain the vital intelligence we need to keep the American people safe," he added. The law has been updated 12 times since 1978, with eight of those changes occurring since 9/11.

^ If the law has been updated 12 times since 78', 8 of those after 9/11..... how the hell can he continue to logically try and explain that it's outdated? What a frigging tool!

"It allows the government to work more efficiently with private-sector entities like communications providers," he said. "It will streamline administrative processes so our intelligence community can gather foreign intelligence more quickly and more effectively, while protecting civil liberties."

HA HA HA HA HA HA..... this idiot knows nothing about protecting civil liberties, esspecially if he's considdering spreading his wire tapping and spying onto other countries without their approval..... He's already proven he doesn't care for the personal liberties and rights for US citizens, what the hell makes us think he'd have better descretion towards forign countries and their people?

Work more effectively with private communications providers? Yeah... right.... "Give us your list of customers or we'll arrest you all for interfearing with National Security....." Yeah I'm sure they'll work more effectively.

"If they want to target people overseas they don't need a warrant," Richardson told Cybercast News Service. "That's not really what they want. They want Americans' phone calls. Even Americans who make international calls -- even when they're not suspected of any connection to terrorism -- can have their calls picked up without warrant." "FISA was supposed to protect communications on American soil and if this passes, that will no longer be the case," she said. "Undue burden or not, the Fourth Amendment requires some sort of court review."

Yar.....

Bush urged Congress to act immediately on the bill.

Of course he want's them to act quickly on it.... so nobody has the time to look it over in detail, so he can slip more BS through.... like he's done in the past with his other bills and laws.... Fokking TOOL!!!

Anybody who says to act quickly on a bill, I'd vote no immediatly... nobody tells me to rush something through like a brainless tool without reading it first.....

Bush is citing the same BS as he always did, like he always does, like he always will.... his preaching never changes, and it's always for the safety of the US people..... cripes I'm not even from the US, and I know this isn't good for the US people.... it's good for him and his minions....

[Gods_Mercenary]

Wern't they already doing that before with the patriot act?

Yah, but I don't think it was technically legal. Maybe the FBI could start spying on congress, that would be interesting what they'd turn up.

[Captain Cardio]

I don't agree with Bush, but what would you guys do to prevent another terrorist attack, if you were in charge? Where is a good balance between security and liberty, given the current situation with the middle east?

[Osborn F Enready]

When are people going to actually take action to STOP this, instead of simply complaining about it?

Its time for blanket impeachment people.

We should draft an impeachment demand from the citizens of the United States to Congress via a form of "redress of grievance", demanding all current seated Senators and Congressmen, as well as the Executive Branch step down and resign from service by order of the American People.

Its obvious none of these morons could run a simulated government, let alone a real one.

Instead, people will come home in their foreign cars, put their feet up and watch Oprah on their Japanese Televisions, with their feet up on their Chinese furniture, after returning home to their IKEA furniture, and complain about how Britney Spears isn't in the news enough, and how much they don't like the new season of "Big Brother".

I wish the world had a flush handle.

[Osborn F Enready]

Here is the letter I just sent off to all my representatives, and the President.

I oppose the expansion of warrantless wiretapping, while understanding the serious threat to our nation of terrorism, in a climate of global insecurity and predictable, but ignored consequential blowback from our past and current foreign policies, mainly the War in Iraq. I feel the President and this administration have acted far outside the scope of executive authority in this matter to this point, and I feel that though our laws must keep pace with technology, individual rights must be respected and remain uninfringed by law, which has its meaning and purpose validated by the expressed intent of protecting the very rights in question. FISA may not be perfect, but it can be used until an effective means is discovered that allows security while respecting citizens individual rights to their full extent. More important to national security in my humble opinion, is the borders of our nation, which we as a people reserve the right to protect from foreign encroachment, invasion, aggression or illegal entry. This administration has failed miserably at securing our borders, and dealing with illegal immigrants that are being used to directly lower wages and workers rights in this nation. Another serious issue crippling our economy is the tax burden every American shares through the entire spectrum of taxation from income tax to sales tax and all the licensing and bureaucratic costs, most of which is incredibly inefficiently spent by the bi-partisan monopoly on power of Republicans and Democrats(lacking an effective independent third party check to that power). The S-CHIP funding is a disgrace to respectable government, and in regards to the cigarette/cigar tax, the exact type of measure of unfair taxation that brought about the Boston Tea Party, and our eventual rebellion from tyranny. Unfortunately, the lack of reason, logic and honest debate of these issues has become the prevailing norm of our national government. Last but not least, the serious deflation of the value of the dollar, through massive deficit spending, perversion of free-trade to broaden trade with communist and socialist nations, and seriously flawed economic leadership by the Executive since Congress failed to use its control of the purse wisely and in the citizens best intrests. I urge my representatives to seriously reappraise the gravity of our current situation, and the growing dissatisfaction of its citizens with our elected representatives, especially regarding the wholesale of individual rights to subjective, logically challenged arguments lacking substance or validity. Disrespect for our governments representatives leads to a direct disrespect for the laws that maintain peace and prosperity in this nation, and cripples the individuals ability to exercise their rights to limit and directly influence their government, due to their absolute loss of faith in the system to work for them as intended. I seriously urge my representatives, and all national, state and local representatives to take action to correct these tragic injustices to individual rights, and the American Government.

[xyzer]

Posts on this thread indicate no one is aware that the surveillance(not wire tap) was done in wartime to seek advanced intelligence of terrorist intentions.. It did not target US citizens but surveilled traffic of known terrorist and sought to see if there was any indication or terrorist plans to blow up people in the US. Only those messages that met certain key phrases were involved. Do any of you know of any US citizens prosecuted as a result of this activity?

Note!!!No US civilians have been brought to the bar through this surveillance! Note 2. We haven't been attacked again since 9/11! Note 3 FISA delays were crucial in this terrorist scenario where instantaneous evidence might save lives

Get with it guys, this is a wartime scenario and the President is Commander in Chief of our forces charged with defending(protecting us)
Isn't it logical that advanced notice of enemy intentions is crucial?

[shawmutt]

Do any of you know of any US citizens prosecuted as a result of this activity?

Evidence in cases are not widely known, and there has been no major case involving this, yet. However, it has just become legal, and will happen in time.

We haven't been attacked again since 9/11!

You are confusing association with causation. How many times were we attacked before 9/11/01?

Get with it guys, this is a wartime scenario and the President is Commander in Chief of our forces charged with defending(protecting us)

Appeal to fear. That attitude is so 2003. Get with it.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I seriously doubt that spying on U.S. citizens is a big factor in why we haven't had another attack. And, if it gets to the point that a citizen must be wiretapped, a warrant shouldn't be hard to get.

[xyzer]

shawmut you are living in an ethereal world of antwar innocence!

You are confusing association with causation. How many times were we attacked before 9/11/01?

Huh? Over 100 marines in Lebanon? The first world trade center bombing?
The USS Cole? Two embassy attacks in Africa? What the hell do you think the cause for these attacks was? Do you think that the fact they haven't been repeated since 9/11 shows that the avowed enemy have just given up.
Appeal to fear is a pathetic description of reality. As I posted some here don't realize the fact that we have an enemy vowing to destroy us. We are at war! Thus we need to exploit what intelligence we can get before the fact. Not sit on our duffs and bitch about civilian rights being violated when there is no evidence, as you admit, thAT ANY SUCH RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!

[Praxius]

Quote by: xyzer Posts on this thread indicate no one is aware that the surveillance(not wire tap) was done in wartime to seek advanced intelligence of terrorist intentions.. It did not target US citizens but surveilled traffic of known terrorist and sought to see if there was any indication or terrorist plans to blow up people in the US. Only those messages that met certain key phrases were involved. Do any of you know of any US citizens prosecuted as a result of this activity?

At this point, I couldn't care less about US citizens.... this is in relation to my own personal freedoms and rights that this law plans on jumping all over and many other's around the world.... this adds one more pile of crap on my Mistrusting the US scale.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that this will only be used against "Terrorists" or those who threaten the US security? "Terrorist" and "US Security" seem to be open to interpretation by many in your powers.

Case in Point is Arar..... and in fact there is some even more interesting news about his illegal capture and torture by the US that was just recently released, which I will post shortly since I just remembered.

Note!!!No US civilians have been brought to the bar through this surveillance!

What makes you think everyone in these forums are from the US and actually care that it doesn't directly affect US citizens? This relates directly to the rest of the world's international security from the US, and the US shifting from the World Police, to the World Goon Squad.

Note 2. We haven't been attacked again since 9/11!

Nor has Canada.... in fact technically we haven't been attacked by Terrorists yet since or just before 9/11.... we don't need useless spying garbage that infringes on other's rights around the world like this scum bag Bush plans on doing....

Mind you, we have had attempts and we've stopped them..... But since 9/11 so have you guys....

Note 3 FISA delays were crucial in this terrorist scenario where instantaneous evidence might save lives

Delays..... you're complaining about delays? Those so-called delays are there to make sure things are done right..... NOT LIKE IRAQ! The UN had proceedures and agreed there wasn't enough evidence to assist in an invasion of Iraq.... yet you peons followed Bush to your slow and inevitable distruction..... and the more you guys continue to support any cockamany plan his moronic brain can think up, the closer and quicker you guys come to the end of the country you once were.

Get with it guys, this is a wartime scenario and the President is Commander in Chief of our forces charged with defending(protecting us) Isn't it logical that advanced notice of enemy intentions is crucial?

Get with it.... haven't you figured out thus far that everything Bush has and is doing is all based around lies and deception for his own personal agenda, not for your protection and your country? There wouldn't be a war time scenario if you guys used your dam brains in the first place and not supported Bush in his invasion of Iraq.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Captain Cardio I don't agree with Bush, but what would you guys do to prevent another terrorist attack, if you were in charge?

Pull all troops from all bases outside of the United States immediately. With that many troops on the homefront, we could easily defend our borders from any terrorist or national incursions.
(example: Dividing our military manpower by the size of our borders and coastline, we could put either a land station or a boat with 4 soliders every 18 miles around the entire United States including Alaska and Hawaii. This does not include the manpower of any border protection agencies already attempting to do this. Impractical, but it shows the point)

Stop all foreign aid.

Tell all oil-producing countries they will provide us with oil at the fair price of $40 a barrel or they will cease to exist. That solves the problem of worrying about our "interests"

Tell Americans they travel abroad at their own risk.

Where is a good balance between security and liberty, given the current situation with the middle east?

Well the old Franklin quote about security vs. liberty is cliche, mostly because people don't LISTEN to it and it needs to be repeated.

Any time there is the slightest incursion upon our Constitutional liberty is not worth security. Especially because, as I have shown above, it is easily possible to ensure our security without infringing upon our liberty at all.

Quote by: xyzer Do you think that the fact they haven't been repeated since 9/11 shows that the avowed enemy have just given up.

Logical fallacy: Red herring (shaw did not say they had given up. What he precisely said was that our liberty-infringing efforts since 9/11 have not prevented further attacks. You did not address that point.)

Logical fallacy: Correlation not Causation.
Illustration:

The Simpsons Example

After a single bear wandering into town has drawn an over-reaction from the residents of Springfield, Homer stands outside his house and muses, “Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is working like a charm!”

Lisa sees through his reasoning: “That’s specious reasoning, dad.” Homer, misunderstanding the word “specious”, thanks her for the compliment.

Optimistically, she tries to explain the error in his argument: “By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.” Homer is confused: “Hmm; how does it work?” Lisa: “It doesn’t work; it’s just a stupid rock!” Homer: “Uh-huh.” Lisa: “... but I don’t see any tigers around, do you?”

Homer, after a moment’s thought: “Lisa, I want to buy your rock...”

Correllation does not imply causation. Just because two things occur together, does not mean that one caused the other. Homer argues that as the Bear Patrol vans are correlated with an absence of bears, the former must have caused the latter. Lisa, tongue in cheek, argues that as the presence of her rock is correlated with an absence of tigers, the former must have caused the latter.

At least Homer recognises that the two arguments are on a par, even if he fails to recognise that both are examples of the correlation not causation fallacy.

Appeal to fear is a pathetic description of reality.

Do you even understand what the logical fallacy of the Appeal to Fear is?

As I posted some here don't realize the fact that we have an enemy vowing to destroy us.

1) Because that "fact" has not been shown.
2) Because even assuming, arguendo, that "fact" had been shown, it has not been shown that trampling on the civil liberties of Americans and deposing and executing the only leader in the Middle East standing up to terrorists has reduced or will reduce the so-called efforts to destroy us.

We are at war!

Are we? With terrorists? Besides the Iraq War we started? Appeal to Fear (look it up).

Thus we need to exploit what intelligence we can get before the fact.

Why? You haven't shown how denying civil liberties will accomplish this.

Not sit on our duffs and bitch about civilian rights being violated when there is no evidence, as you admit, thAT ANY SUCH RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!

If the law exists that allows rights to be violated, that in and of itself is a violation of those rights.

[shawmutt]

Quote by: xyzer Not sit on our duffs and bitch about civilian rights being violated when there is no evidence, as you admit, thAT ANY SUCH RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!

Others have done a good job pointing out your logical fallacies, so I'll leave you to answer for them. This however was not addressed. What you are doing here is building a straw man. The story is about the bill being proposed. How is it possible to provide examples of rights being violated with this law when this bill hasn't even passed yet?

[Technosoul]

Hey, we can all use the Google mapsearch and look down at peoples private properties. Not sure of the web address but you can view things down here via a camera located in space. Zoom right in.

Now you, yes even you the private person, can hire Blackwater to conduct your own spy missions.

"Revolving Door to Blackwater Causes Alarm at CIA" by Ken Silverstein (Harper's Magazine)

However for all you "do it yourself" nuts how about stocking up on the latest spy stuff being sold to the public at large.

Spy Shop, Spy Store, Spy Equipment, Spy Gear, Security Equipment

Why keep hiding, fly naked.

Phoenix airport set to test all-seeing x-ray - Engadget

[thx1138]

[quote=xyzer;418111]shawmut you are living in an ethereal world of antwar innocence!

Huh? Over 100 marines in Lebanon? The first world trade center bombing?
The USS Cole? Two embassy attacks in Africa? What the hell do you think the cause for these attacks was? Do you think that the fact they haven't been repeated since 9/11 shows that the avowed enemy have just given up.
QUOTE]

You should really start asking more questions about the events you mentioned.

What the hell do you think the cause for these attacks was?

To prepare the U.S. for war. To scare the public into accepting huge military budgets as replacement for the Evil Empire the U.S.S.R. with the Axis of Evil, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and North Korea.

YouTube - military budget madness

[shawmutt]

What the hell do you think the cause for these attacks was? To prepare the U.S. for war. To scare the public into accepting huge military budgets as replacement for the Evil Empire the U.S.S.R. with the Axis of Evil, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and North Korea.

Why do all random acts of violence need a conspiracy?

[xyzer]

Others have done a good job pointing out your logical fallacies, so I'll leave you to answer for them. This however was not addressed. What you are doing here is building a straw man. The story is about the bill being proposed. How is it possible to provide examples of rights being violated with this law when this bill hasn't even passed yet?

Wow shawmutt, Building a strawman? I thought I was addressing reality? Have there been any attacks on US soil by terrorists since 9/11? You are creating logical fallacies rather than answering the question.. The rant was not so much about the bill being proposed as it was about the uncalled for(policially motivated) criticisms about the wartime surveillance going on..and its posible impact on the civilian population. Plus you ignored the fact that it was deterring terrorist actions. You don't answer that point, or cant?

tivodan, I wonder whats going on in your thiought processes? You state..

Do you even understand what the logical fallacy of the Appeal to Fear is?

Covert electronic surveillance in wartime is appealing to fear? My fear is you are illogically mixing surveillance with the reasons for the invasion of Iraq? IMO you can't participate in our national defense because I wouldn't trust you? You might be appealing to fear and thats a logical fallacy? Hmm?
And then you post..

What he precisely said was that our liberty-infringing efforts since 9/11 have not prevented further attacks. You did not address that point.)

I had just asked the question were there any more attacks on US soils by Islamic terrorists after 9/11? Wasn't that my point or did I confuse you with a direct question..which you didn't answer?

Here is another doozer!

What the hell do you think the cause for these attacks was?

The old indirect consequences argument which really is illogical. Tell me did the USA somehow threaten Islam by sailing the USS Cole into an Muslim nations harbor? Did the terrorists have to attack it in revenge for the US supporting the Shah in Iran? Thats playground logic and should be relegated to that level. This is supposed to be a reasoned discussion!:rolleyes:

Answer the questions..Are we at war? In war are we allowed to gather intelligence about an enemies intentions? What did the US do directly to cause its embassies to be attacked, its warships to be bombed and its commercial aircraft to be hi hacked?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: shawmutt Why do all random acts of violence need a conspiracy?

I would agree, humans are far more violent than intelligent, it's a lot easier to blow something up than to coordinate a conspiracy to blow something up

[shawmutt]

Quote by: xyzer Wow shawmutt, Building a strawman? I thought I was addressing reality? Have there been any attacks on US soil by terrorists since 9/11? You are creating logical fallacies rather than answering the question.. The rant was not so much about the bill being proposed as it was about the uncalled for(policially motivated) criticisms about the wartime surveillance going on..and its posible impact on the civilian population. Plus you ignored the fact that it was deterring terrorist actions. You don't answer that point, or cant? tivodan, I wonder whats going on in your thiought processes? You state.. Covert electronic surveillance in wartime is appealing to fear? My fear is you are illogically mixing surveillance with the reasons for the invasion of Iraq? IMO you can't participate in our national defense because I wouldn't trust you? You might be appealing to fear and thats a logical fallacy? Hmm? And then you post.. I had just asked the question were there any more attacks on US soils by Islamic terrorists after 9/11? Wasn't that my point or did I confuse you with a direct question..which you didn't answer? Here is another doozer! The old indirect consequences argument which really is illogical. Tell me did the USA somehow threaten Islam by sailing the USS Cole into an Muslim nations harbor? Did the terrorists have to attack it in revenge for the US supporting the Shah in Iran? Thats playground logic and should be relegated to that level. This is supposed to be a reasoned discussion!:rolleyes: Answer the questions..Are we at war? In war are we allowed to gather intelligence about an enemies intentions? What did the US do directly to cause its embassies to be attacked, its warships to be bombed and its commercial aircraft to be hi hacked?

I think "liberated thinker" means your thinking is somehow liberated from your brain. By some herculean stretch that borders on the almost impossible, you manage to type a response that both ignores all your previous posts and adds more irrelevance to the topic while also avoiding every question asked and every point made by others since your last post. Bravo, you've made my neck hurt from all the head shaking I've just done.

Um...in response to your response, I point to mine and other's previously stated response.