Workers are told to shape up or pay up

[ZNFYRH]

That's one way to see it.

The other is that all the doctors would be clamoring for the higher paying jobs and the noble ones would stay where they are with the poor folks while the middle class like me would be left choosing between the swamped and overworked or the choosy and overpriced.

[Osborn F Enready]

ZNYFRH said: That's one way to see it. The other is that all the doctors would be clamoring for the higher paying jobs and the noble ones would stay where they are with the poor folks while the middle class like me would be left choosing between the swamped and overworked or the choosy and overpriced.

LOL.... I know what you mean.

But, look at it this way for a second.

We have been on the wrong road for a long time. Is it any wonder it will be a little bumpy to take the cross-over on to the right road we should have been on all along?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready This is a complex problem you are attempting to over-simplify, which makes it harder to understand, and easier to justify bad legislation. Wages aren't keeping pace because the type of work is changing drasticly as manufacturing moves offshore, and service industry becomes the norm. This is a problem caused by many things, but mainly the devaluing of the dollar, the creation of laws that allow manufacturers in third world countries that abuse their workers to enter our trade market with their goods, illegal aliens flooding the labor workforce and lowering wages on low-skilled jobs, and overall, over-taxation while simulataneously borrowing from foreign nations to spend much more than we are making.

For all your introduced complications, people's wages still trail or just keep pace with inflation, making health insurance a competitor with basic living expenses, education expenses, and the like.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready There is no reason for corporations to offer healthcare coverage anymore.

I think most Americans, like myself, would agree. They increasingly support national health insurance instead (see poll I posted above).

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Exactly, which is why corporations are now using this as an EXCUSE to create new hiring descrimination policies, attempting to FORCE society to conform to "their prescribed vision" of what America should be. This is yet another blatant step towards authoritarian control.

Where in the US Constitution does it say that employers must keep an alcoholic on the payroll? Also, most private business HATES paying for expensive mandatory employee insurance programs, which undercuts the motivation to "force" society into some "prescribed vision" of utopia.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Which is exactly what the corporations and big government want.... Total control over you, your finances, your medical access and your life. Good sheeple. (pet pet pet pet)

Really? Even the majority of private physicians who support national health care in the recent poll I posted are in on this giant conspiracy too? Oh, right, they must all be named Sheeple, MD.

[ZNFYRH]

Rough road... yes.

But I'd hate to see what happens to middle class health care while on that road.

[Osborn F Enready]

The Decider said: I think most Americans, like myself, would agree. They increasingly support national health insurance instead (see poll I posted above).

I could care less what "fantasy camp socialist healthcare" ideas they agree with, because it is blatantly against the rights of American taxpayers, unconstitutional, and grounds for revolt.

The Decider said: Where in the US Constitution does it say that employers must keep an alcoholic on the payroll?

Nowhere, much like it doesn't say the government is responsible for safety nets, healthcare, medicare, social security, education, etc.

Now, after I just ran down the basics of what is already being done unconstitutionally off the backs of the taxpayers, is there any wonder why business and private individuals are choking by paying these fees they aren't required to pay in the first place, Constitutionally, and as Congress and the Senate extort and "earmark" away that money for "other funds", why the public is so against allowing government MORE authority to steal money from taxpayers checks, to be doled out under favoritism and partisan schills?

The Decider said: Also, most private business HATES paying for expensive mandatory employee insurance programs, which undercuts the motivation to "force" society into some "prescribed vision" of utopia.

Try to force it, I and many other Americans own arms and will meet that attempt at communist force with force of our own.

[Osborn F Enready]

ZNYFRH said: Rough road... yes. But I'd hate to see what happens to middle class health care while on that road.

What else is there Z? We have to make sacrifices to make change in a positive direction, since we have been going in the wrong direction for a long time.

“We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed”
-Thomas Jefferson

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Osborn We have to make sacrifices to make change in a positive direction

I only question your use of the word, "we."

Of what I described for the "rough road," how much would it really affect you?

I know that it would be very frightening for many Middle Class like me who have families and can't afford to pay the price if someone gets very sick... all during the inconvenient transition.

No offense intended, but it's very easy for those with little to lose to speak about the nobility of sacrifice.

In the meantime, I will allow my employer to pay 80%-90% of the costs of my medical insurance and tell me to stay healthy. It's what I'd be doing anyway, and I just can't afford to pay for medical care on my own.

[The Decider]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I could care less what "fantasy camp socialist healthcare" ideas they agree with, because it is blatantly against the rights of American taxpayers, unconstitutional, and grounds for revolt... Try to force it, I and many other Americans own arms and will meet that attempt at communist force with force of our own.

Armed revolt? Looks like the health insurance debate may generate more demand for health insurance, that is, if the civil war casuaties can afford the rates. :)

[shawmutt]

No offense intended, but it's very easy for those with little to lose to speak about the nobility of sacrifice.

I agree.

Try to force it, I and many other Americans own arms and will meet that attempt at communist force with force of our own.

...

Part of the problem is that the politicians have once again succeeded in creating a wedge issue.

It's a false dichotomy--according to many Americans, there is the status quo and socialized medicine, and no room for compromise. With 40% of employers not offering any type of health insurance, and 9 million kids without coverage, the status quo sucks. You won't know that until it effects you.

There are many viable alternatives-- Health care systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An interesting note--The United States is alone among developed nations with the absence of a universal healthcare system.

An interesting page of stats-- NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage

So Osbourne, you better keep your powder dry, cause change is coming.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: shawmutt You won't know that until it effects you.

That's what it boils down to.

I had lots of ideals and was full of fire and brimstone when I was single and child-less. Now I have other things to think about, and I realize that the reason many Americans probably don't fight for these kinds of things is because they have too much to lose during the "rough road" transition.

[Osborn F Enready]

So, because YOU people can't RAISE YOUR OWN KIDS, and PAY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTHCARE, you think its ok to steal from others to support your health?

I hope they send YOU to come and collect the money from my door.

[ZNFYRH]

This thread isn't about socialized health care.

Bringing up SHC is a serious de-railing.

[Osborn F Enready]

Serious or not, it shows the underlying mentality that is ruining this country.

[gopchick]

I think that all parties can agree that healthcare is an issue in the States. The bottomline here is that for an Employer to offer their employee health coverage, whether it is a portion or all of it is a benefit to the employee.

Our health costs have gone up from smoking, obesity, drug addictions, and so forth. There are LARGER health factors with these groups of people. Their health insurance is going to be more - so these people need to take a pro-active stance in wanting to better themselves physically and take care of their bodies this way they and the rest of us aren't paying for it.

[ZNFYRH]

I'll agree to that.

Because we are a nation of fat smokers who expect health care to be handed to them, the costs have gone through the roof.

Stop paying for triple bypasses, and those people will slowly die off.

As they die off, the medical "business" will slow down and they'll be forced to lower prices in order to stick around.

[gopchick]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I'll agree to that. Because we are a nation of fat smokers who expect health care to be handed to them, the costs have gone through the roof. Stop paying for triple bypasses, and those people will slowly die off. As they die off, the medical "business" will slow down and they'll be forced to lower prices in order to stick around.

I don't know you yet or how you come across - so I will just have to ask

Are you being serious here?

[ZNFYRH]

If someone develops a life-threatening condition due to their own lifestyle choices, I do not believe they should receive any financial assistance for their medical bills.

[gopchick]

Quote by: ZNFYRH If someone develops a life-threatening condition due to their own lifestyle choices, I do not believe they should receive any financial assistance for their medical bills.

ok - i am sorry I just didn't know if you were joking or not.

I do agree, people know between right and wrong and when they are sitting there stuffing big mac after big mac and smoking cig after cig, their health is going to take a toll. It doesn't take a rocket scientists to figure that out.

[ZNFYRH]

No need to apologize.

I'm not normally so harsh, but in this case I really mean it.

They might all be really nice people, but if they can't be interested in being alive enough to stop killing themselves, I don't want to have to pay for them to survive.

[Osborn F Enready]

You both are missing the point.

Its the individuals job to get healthcare, not the employers.

So, are you both in agreement that companies should be able to descriminate against unhealthy people, as they used to do to blacks?

Just want this clarified.