CIA to reveal decades of misdeeds

[thx1138]

I am sure the general public wouldn't know what to do with most of the intelligence the CIA collects or even fathom WHY it collects it.

Why is the public too ignorant for this secrets?
Was it always like this or is this on purpose?
Would it have anything to do with the education system?

If the government was unhappy with the education system it would fix it, but if the public too dumb or ignorant to understand the secrets of the government, than maybe the government is getting exactly what it wants .

So do you think these same people who elect the politicians would, or SHOULD know what our secrets are?

Maybe if they knew more about what is really going on they would not elect them.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Childish? For one thing, you are not the arbiter of what constitutes maturity, thankfully.

So a spy agency that engages in terrorist activities at home and abroad is intellectually mature? I'm certainly not THE arbiter of maturity, but I'm more mature than that.

Quote by: Scribbler1 Whether it's childish or not doesn't even APPLY in this context. I'm not asking for compulsory ignorance, neither am I asking to know things I am not supposed to know.

That is really odd. How is intellectual maturity completely irrelevant to the discussion? Furthermore, by saying we should remain ignorant of things "we're not supposed to know," how are you not asking for people to remain ignorant?

Quote by: Scribbler1 This country has been engaged in covert activities for a LONG time, just like MOST OTHER countries. We all know about these activities, but most of us are smart enough to also know when WE know about things the rest of the world does too and we don't WANT to let the rest of the world know what we are doing.

Oh, so it's a SMART thing to create distrust and hostility between nations (which is exactly what such behavior entails everywhere it's applied)?

Quote by: Scribbler1 It kind of defeats the purpose of spying when everybody knows you're DOING it, doesn't it?

First of all, you seem to assume international spying has benign purposes. Why? Where is the evidence in support of this value judgment?

Quote by: Scribbler1 But I'll tell you what IS childish, in the extreme. That blanket statement of "I view state power as an enemy" gives the impression you want the state to have NO power. The "state" is NOT the enemy. The state is US. The way it was created was to make it a tool for the people's benefit and not the evil James Bond-ish entity some people see it as.

First, let me note the supreme irony of your accusing me of living in a James Bond-ish fantasy world for my opposing a national spy agency.

Why do so many assume there are no practical reasons to simply despise state government? I am not against the state for "conspiracy theory"reasons. I haven't said our government is aided by extraterrestrial visitors given VIP status or something. I just hate hierarchical, war-mongering organizations that systematically create class division, intentionally foster ignorance and, in many ways, simply threaten human survival (this is especially true when considering the incredible risk that comes with nuclear weapons).
Those are all very adult, clearly evident reasons to despise state power.

With the continual growth of state power, desolation is always near--even in places and times of relevent prosperity. And, again, this isn't just some theory of mine. It's factual. You must be simply impervious to such evident truths.

Here is why I object to your simply saying the state is "us":
The state is not in my interests. It's elite functionaries and their agents do things in my name, but it is not literally me.

In fact, even if you ardently support the state--even if you work directly for it--it will still work against you in some fashion. This too could be evident to anyone, unless they entertain bizarre views such as yours about the state simply being benign.

Quote by: Scribbler1 We have allowed some parts of it to become corrupt and we must fix that. But your black and white, comic book viewpoint regarding the idea of the CIA and just what we are SUPPOSED to know (hint:not everything) is ridiculous.

How do we fix it without seriously underming the state?

And, of course, you've attempted yet again to simply characterize my arguments as a "comic book viewpoint," whatever that means. You know there is no rational argument for ignorance of anything the government is doing, so you just throw around meaningless insults.

I think it's you who must live in a fantasy world.

Grandpa h.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: grandpa So a spy agency that engages in terrorist activities at home and abroad is intellectually mature? I'm certainly not THE arbiter of maturity, but I'm more mature than that.

Where did I use the word terrorist? Once again, the CIA is just a tool the government uses. Like a hammer, you can bang a nail or hit someone in the head with it. Your complaints about the CIA would be better aimed at the people who MISUSE the agency.

Oh, so it's a SMART thing to create distrust and hostility between nations (which is exactly what such behavior entails everywhere it's applied)?

No, it's NOT a smart thing, which is why your position supporting releasing ANY records is so ridiculous. If a covert group does its job right, nobody else KNOWS what they do.

First of all, you seem to assume international spying has benign purposes. Why? Where is the evidence in support of this value judgment?

You ask for evidence to support an assumption YOU think I have made? Well, first of all it is NOT benign. These activities can go two ways, either against another country or for a country to DEFEND itself against other countries. Knowing half the world has spy agencies and that a lot of them don't like us tells me your fantasy world without a CIA is not only foolish but dangerous as well. Unless you think the whole world will stop spying what you propose would open us up to a lot of grief.

First, let me note the supreme irony of your accusing me of living in a James Bond-ish fantasy world for my opposing a national spy agency.

You're right. A James Bond-ish mentality would acknowledge the existence of international spy agencies and not just the US.

Why do so many assume there are no practical reasons to simply despise state government? I am not against the state for "conspiracy theory"reasons. I haven't said our government is aided by extraterrestrial visitors given VIP status or something. I just hate hierarchical, war-mongering organizations that systematically create class division, intentionally foster ignorance and, in many ways, simply threaten human survival (this is especially true when considering the incredible risk that comes with nuclear weapons). Those are all very adult, clearly evident reasons to despise state power.

Then take your bitch to the state and not the tool they use. If you could wave your hand and make the CIA vanish tomorrow, the state you despise would still be there, wouldn't it?

With the continual growth of state power, desolation is always near--even in places and times of relevent prosperity. And, again, this isn't just some theory of mine. It's factual. You must be simply impervious to such evident truths.

No, I'm just a little hesitant to support dismantling the CIA for "feelgood" reasons. YOU are the one bringing up the state, not me. I don't like the way our government works today any more than you. I just have a better grasp of reality as to who is at fault here. The CIA is not the government. They FOLLOW policy. They don't MAKE it.

Here is why I object to your simply saying the state is "us": The state is not in my interests. It's elite functionaries and their agents do things in my name, but it is not literally me.

Of course it isn't "literally" you. "US" is exactly what it means. This government, like it or not, represents ALL of us. If we don't like what it has become it really isn't the government's fault. It is OUR fault, and as an American you are ALSO part of "our" just as you are part of "US."

In fact, even if you ardently support the state--even if you work directly for it--it will still work against you in some fashion. This too could be evident to anyone, unless they entertain bizarre views such as yours about the state simply being benign.

Too far off topic. We were discussing the CIA.

How do we fix it without seriously underming the state?

We don't NEED to fix the CIA, that's the point. We need to demand the people in charge don't use the agency for anything other than national security. If the "state" can't live with that, we just need to get rid of the people in charge. Rather than undermining anything, that would improve things immeasurably.

And, of course, you've attempted yet again to simply characterize my arguments as a "comic book viewpoint," whatever that means. You know there is no rational argument for ignorance of anything the government is doing, so you just throw around meaningless insults.

What it means is a view of the world at odds with reality.
I have already explained why certain things must be unknown to us.
During Desert Storm, some reporter asked Colin Powell where the troops were at that time. After Powell's eyes returned to normal size he explained that if he told the reporter where the troops were the ENEMY would know that too. The reporter had simply not thought through the question before he asked it. You sound like that reporter in this regard.
If we are told all the things the CIA, the military, the FBI and other organizations do, our enemies would know it too. But, unlike you, THEY would know what to do with that information.
Don't you think outfits like al-Queda would just love to know what our spy agencies are doing and where and who their agents are?

THAT is a "comic book" viewpoint. And speaking of being ignorant of things, aside from the publicized excesses by the CIA, you really don't have a clue as to what they are doing at any given time. Therefore, you don't know if they are doing GOOD things, yet you demand their activities to be publicized. The words "reckless" and "irresponsible" come to mind.

[thx1138]

GOOD things they are doing

Like drug running and hiring Nazis?
Your right people shouldn't know things like that about the CIA.

You should really watch this video and listen some of the good things they are doing.

Mike Ruppert - CIA and Drug Running (1997)

[Scribbler1]

For the last time, this is NOT about the CIAs excesses and illegal operations. They are TOLD to do these things and all I hear is a load of crap about dismantling the CIA and NOT to hold the people who control it to be responsible.
This is all about these people who want the CIA shut down and/or to know all about what they do. That is irresponsible, period. The average citizen doesn't NEED to know what the CIA does any more than they need to know George Bush's sex life.

If people can't understand that, there's nothing more I can say.

[thx1138]

I hear is a load of crap about dismantling the CIA

One man tried to dismantle the CIA back in the early nineteen sixties and we all saw what happened to him.

hold the people who control it to be responsible.

You think congress can hold the CIA responsible? The can every few year hold some hearing and find maybe little about what it's doing, but after the hearings it's business as usual.

CIA is just a tool the government

I think the tail is waging the dog. The government is ment to use the CIA as a tool, but how do you know that is happening? The former CIA agents that have come public with information about the agency have made claims that the CIA is acting (at times) independent of the electoral government.

[rmnunez]

You think the CIA had Kennedy killed?

[thx1138]

Quote by: rmnunez You think the CIA had Kennedy killed?

You think it was a lone nut with a Mannlicher 0.256 rifle?

There's another thread that gets into this...

[rmnunez]

Maybe not, but I thought both the Mafia and Cuban conspiracy scenarios were more plausible.

[thx1138]

Well if CIA worked with the Mafia in an attempt to kill Castro, maybe the same with JFK. Maybe it was some hired guns from the Mafia with the CIA setting up the plans.

[rmnunez]

Maybe.

[thx1138]

The Men Who Killed Kennedy is a video documentary series by Nigel Turner that originally aired in 1988 in England with two one-hour segments about the John F. Kennedy assassination. The United States corporation, Arts & Entertainment Company, purchased the rights to the original two segments. Three one-hour segments were added in 1991. A sixth segment was added in 1995. Finally, three additional hourly segments were added by the History Channel in November 2003.

The ninth segment, titled "The Guilty Men", directly implicated Lyndon B. Johnson. Within days, Johnson's widow, Lady Bird Johnson, more of his surviving associates, ex-President Jimmy Carter, and the lone, living Warren Commission commissioner and ex-President Gerald R. Ford immediately complained to the History Channel. They subsequently threatened legal action against Arts & Entertainment Company, owner of the History Channel. "The Guilty Men" segment was completely withdrawn by the History Channel, that action resulting in considerable controversy.

Also during the series, French prisoner Christian David named Lucien Sarti as one of three French criminals hired to carry out the assassination of Kennedy, when he was interviewed by author Anthony Summers. This claim is one of the most strongly investigated theories presented on the show, as well as one of the section taken least seriously.

As of March 2004, a panel of three historians (selected by The History Channel) is reviewing the claims made in "The Guilty Men". The History Channel has announced that it will be airing a live discussion about the claims.

[grandpa]

I don't have much time left to use the computer. So, Scribbler, let me just point out one incredibly obvious thing:

If the CIA is a part of the state, IT is responsible for carrying out state policies, which means to condemn the state is to criticize its spy agencies.

If the CIA is completely impartial, carrying out whatever orders come to its offices--why is it to go unchallenged? That's a reason to challenge it more, if anything! That means it follows the same mindset of the gestapo or any fascist organization--just carry out the orders.

Grandpa h.

[Scribbler1]

Whatever. I've laid out my position and explained myself more than once. I'm not rehashing the same things again and I'm not changing my position.

[Punkbuster]

Well we do face one reality that cant be gotten around- and I know that many of you think this is made up but we have a domestic threat that is real and it is a balancing act as to how we can pre-empt this threat. I know that many of you think that it is just a Republican made up threat (Just like the first WTC attack under Clinton) but we simply must do what it takes to stop these people before they bomb us back to the stone age.

[thx1138]

Quote by: Punkbuster Well we do face one reality that cant be gotten around- and I know that many of you think this is made up but we have a domestic threat that is real and it is a balancing act as to how we can pre-empt this threat. I know that many of you think that it is just a Republican made up threat (Just like the first WTC attack under Clinton) but we simply must do what it takes to stop these people before they bomb us back to the stone age.

Yes we do have a domestic threat and it's not just some "Republican" plan to take over the U.S. or have complete power. It's from both sides which seem like two side but they are the same. The threats are real the killing is real but it's controlled killing to get people pray "Oh god somebody stop this !" and the government is all too happy to step in with law that will make you save.

Punkbuster, have you ever read the book 1984 or at least watched the movie? Or studied how Hitler stole power in Germany in the ninteen thirties? Hitler also pass laws to protect the German citizens from a "domestic threat" some of those law included gun control and domestic spying.

This is an old game it's not Republican vs Democrat, Liberal vs Conservative, or light skin vs dark skin. This is all just smoke and mirrors, they may say different things but their actions once in power are the same. Do you think Clinton is going to remove the U.S. bases from Iraq? of course not.

People need to stop this left vs right game and really take a look at what is happening. The bottom line is energy, economy, and keeping the empires from shrinking or breaking apart. The empires of North America, Europe, and Asia, are all looking for energy in the same place. That place is the Middle-East.

Each of these empires want to be able to control this area or have governments that would sell them cheap oil. If a country doesn't play ball or supports one empire over the other ( Like Iraq selling oil in euros instead of dollars) then that country will get invaded or have sanctions put on it by the U.N. (which just does the bidding for these empires).

It was the same with afghanistan only this time it was natural gas not oil.

Well Iran is now asking Japan to pay for oil in Yen not U.S. dollars or Euros. So here we go again. Time to free all those Iranian people from the their evil leaders.

And the CIA is able to pull off domestic threats (with help from the ISI).

[Punkbuster]

Well thx this one is a little different I think-
First of all the dirt poor German people at the time had ZERO media sources (good or bad- and of course we have too many) but the "bogeyman" at the time that Hitler elevated (Jews etc...) had NO HISTORY or inclinations of killing and blowing up people as a straight passport to heaven.
If you think that the Islamist movement is a made up government thing so that the "government" ("by the people and for the people" and all that blah blah) then I can tell you you are wrong- it is totally real, will happen here and the "government" will be powerless to stop it. It can CONTAIN it but someone is going to leak through someday with a dirty nuke that will cripple us for quite a while.

As far as removing bases from Iraq we better not. It would be nice to just say lets extricate ourselves from there (and Kosovo and everywhere else) but it simply isn't going to happen.
The Iraq war is NOW about OIL - because when we leave IRAN gets the oil and NO ONE but Iran, Shi'ites and Syria want this to happen (I left out Russia but that is another story)
I know some fairly influential Muslims and have very good business relationships with them. They are Sunni and they tell me that not them or anyone can stop the Islamists and I believe them. If you wake up every morning brainwashed to get to heaven by killing infidels- then it will happen.

At no time in history have we had times like this.

If you also equate Hitler to modern day government "protectionism" and rise to power- then you have to equate the Reichstag fire- set by the Nazis to the WTC. And put me clearly in the camp that it was NOT brought down by Bush or the USA.

[thx1138]

The dirt poor German people were givin radios to listen to so they could hear the words of the Nazis. But today if most news outlets are owned by the same source then it's becomming the same thing.

but the "bogeyman" at the time that Hitler elevated (Jews etc...)

The threat of terrorism that was sold to the German poeple were from the Communist which the Nazis were in a struggle for power. After the Communist were defeated then they turn toward the Jews. And they pass the same type of law that are being passed now.

I don't think Bush brought down the towers, I don't think he knew until days before, I do believe that the ISI along with elements of the upper ranks of the CIA did know about it. Now that is not saying the USA brought down the towers, that line of thinking is knee gut reaction by people who can't believe elements of the U.S. government would work against them. Big surprise there.

The ISI is clearly linked to the funding of the terrorists who did the work, no doubt terrorists did the attack, but who was funding the operation.

[Punkbuster]

Listening to state run radio is clearly different than hearing, seeing and feeling HUNDREDS (Thousands?) of Imams declare death to the infidel to gain heaven.
Who was funding the operation? Uhhh Oil money from Wahabbins In Saudi maybe? And here is another one- they TAKE the money of the recruits. Just read an article where a new "jihadi" was told to save up $1600 - he went from Suadi to Syria to Iraq. Upon getting to Iraq the $1600 was taken from from him- he got $100 in return. It is a great story.

But thats getting off point- bottom line is that I don't give a crap about Hitler and the Nazi propaganda machine. You can claim that all day if you want- it does not take the fact away that TO GET TO HEAVEN tens of thousands worldwide have been brainwashed to kill us and restore the 12th Imam and the 11th century caliphate. These are crazy people that must be stopped or they will stop us. It is rare that we have faced an enemy that (In their words) "love death more than we love life".

Look it up over 90% of the shooting wars on earth today involve Muslims on one OR BOTH sides. And as stated above I have many Muslim friends- i am not an Islamo-phobe but really this is not a "religion of "peace"" Scratch the surface of most Muslims and the west and Israel at best are infidels and at worst must be killed for Allah's sake.

[thx1138]

These are crazy people that must be stopped or they will stop us.

They will stop us from what exactly? Does Iran, Syira or Iraq have troops on U.S. soil? How many wars ships does Iran have off the coast of the U.S.?

There are nut jobs on both sides and I hope you both get your wish you can go to your heaven and they can go to thiers, just don't destory the world on your way there. Have fun!